Committee
Health and Sport Committee 22 September 2010
22 Sep 2010 · S3 · Health and Sport Committee
Item of business
Alcohol etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Since the Scottish National Party came to power as a minority Government, we have faced many difficult decisions, but no one could accuse the Scottish Conservatives of bringing party politics into those decisions. That would apply to our support for the SNP Government’s budget over the years. Nicola Sturgeon’s comments, therefore, are not what we have come to expect from her.No one in Scotland can be in any doubt about the worrying levels of alcohol consumption but, as parliamentarians, it is our duty to scrutinise evidence and decide whether the measures proposed will address the problem that Scotland faces. The evidence base for minimum pricing shows that it has not passed the test of reducing alcohol consumption. Minimum pricing would penalise responsible drinkers, harm the Scottish whisky industry and cost jobs. It is still questionable whether it complies with European law. As the cabinet secretary has said, it has been likened to the weather forecast, and anyone who lived in the Highlands last year will have little faith in that.The Conservatives accept that there is a relationship between price and alcohol consumption, but we reject the proposals for minimum pricing. As we have consistently said, alongside banning the sale of alcohol below cost price, the most effective method is to target problem drinks with extra tax and duty on a United Kingdom-wide basis. That would avoid responsible drinkers being penalised, would be more effective at reducing consumption and would stop the undoubted proliferation in cross-border and internet sales.There is no doubt that minimum pricing affects people on the lowest incomes most. Some problem drinks will be unaffected by the measure, and other drinks, such as whisky, will increase in price, proving that the SNP policy of blanket, indiscriminate minimum pricing is a blunt instrument. Far better that we target problem drinks and target help at problem drinkers than that we cost sensible consumers extra millions of pounds per year. As others have said in the committee, the majority of the extra revenue would go to retailers and producers, unlike a tax, which would bring revenue to the public purse at this difficult time for the economy.09:45 Common sense, economics and public opinion have all called time on the minimum price, and I have lodged amendment 1 to scrap the SNP’s blanket minimum pricing policy. My view is supported by many in the industry, such as Whyte & Mackay, the Scottish Beer and Pub Association and the Scottish Grocers Federation, as well as producers and retailers such as Morrisons and Sainsbury’s. I hope that it will be supported by other members.With regard to the sunset clause that is proposed in amendments 6 and 7, frankly, a lot of damage could be done to Scottish businesses in six to seven years and we are not willing to take that risk.In the Sheffield study, there is no evidence on the substitute effect, which would undoubtedly come into play as a result of the minimum price. There is also no evidence on cross-border sales or sale over the internet, which is the fastest-growing means of buying alcohol. There is no evidence on the effect of a minimum price on binge drinkers, and there is no evidence on the effect on people on low incomes. However, there is evidence from Finland that, when the price falls, demand for alcohol increases and that, when the price rises, consumption remains the same. I have heard nothing today, in evidence—both oral and written—or during our visits to Finland and France that tells me that a minimum price would reduce the level of alcohol consumption. Therefore, I stand by my amendment.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Christine Grahame)
SNP
Good morning and welcome to the 26th meeting in 2010 of the Health and Sport Committee. I remind everyone to switch off mobile phones and other electronic eq...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 2, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments 3 to 5, 1, 6 and 7.
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing (Nicola Sturgeon)
SNP
I apologise in advance for my relatively lengthy opening remarks as I attempt to address all the amendments in the group.Amendments 3 and 5 are technical ame...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
Since the Scottish National Party came to power as a minority Government, we have faced many difficult decisions, but no one could accuse the Scottish Conser...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I started the process by acknowledging, along with all other members, that Scotland had a serious problem with alcohol—a problem that was growing. The Labour...
The Convener
SNP
I have no wish to suppress submissions from members. However, where members agree with something that another member has just said, it would be helpful if th...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Lab
I support everything that Richard Simpson and Mary Scanlon have said in connection with amendment 1. As we have heard, both the cabinet secretary and the com...
Ross Finnie (West of Scotland) (LD)
LD
I will not vote in favour of the Government’s minimum price policy; I will vote for Mary Scanlon’s amendment. I will do that because I am not persuaded by th...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I have some short comments to make. I will not rehearse all the arguments that other people have made.It is clear that there is a dispute in the committee ab...
Ian McKee (Lothians) (SNP)
SNP
As we know, the result of the vote is more or less preordained, so members will be relieved to hear that I do not intend to add greatly to the logorrhoea to ...
Michael Matheson (Falkirk West) (SNP)
SNP
I believe that the minimum unit pricing proposal in the bill is a serious attempt to implement an effective measure to tackle Scotland’s relationship with al...
The Convener
SNP
Unusually, I will say something from the chair. The cabinet secretary might recall that, many moons ago, when I was in a shadow cabinet, I was completely opp...
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
I am grateful to all members for their contributions to the debate today. Unsurprisingly, I do not agree with all of them; nevertheless, the debate has been ...
The Convener
SNP
I thank the cabinet secretary and members of the committee for conducting a testy debate in a dignified manner, if I am allowed to use the word “dignified”.T...
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division.ForGrahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)AgainstEadie, Helen ...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 3, Abstentions 2. I exercise my casting vote in favour of the amendment.Amendment 2 agreed to.Amendment 3 moved...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 3 be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division.ForGrahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)AgainstEadie, Helen ...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 3, Abstentions 2. I exercise my casting vote in favour of the amendment.Amendment 3 agreed to.Amendment 4 moved...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 4 be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division.ForGrahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)AgainstEadie, Helen ...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 3, Abstentions 2. I exercise my casting vote in favour of the amendment.Amendment 4 agreed to.Amendment 5 moved...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 5 be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division.ForGrahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)AgainstEadie, Helen ...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 3, Abstentions 2. I exercise my casting vote in favour of the amendment.Amendment 5 agreed to.Amendment 1 moved...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division.ForEadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Scanlon, Mary ...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 5, Against 3, Abstentions 0.Amendment 1 agreed to.After section 1Amendments 6 and 7 not moved.
The Convener
SNP
This is a suitable time for the committee and the cabinet secretary to have a short break.10:53 Meeting suspended. 11:03 On resuming— Section 2—Minimum pri...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 33, in the name of Mary Scanlon, is the only amendment in the group.