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Committee

Education, Culture and Sport Committee, 02 May 2000

02 May 2000 · S1 · Education, Culture and Sport Committee
Item of business
Standards in Scotland's Schools etc Bill: Stage 2
Following is the simultaneous interpretation: Watch on SPTV
I am Fionnlagh MacLeod. I work with Comhairle Nan Sgoiltean Araich, the Gaelic Playgroups Association. We are a national organisation, working throughout Scotland. CNSA was established 20 years ago. At that time, there were only four pre-school Gaelic groups, but in the past 20 years that number has risen dramatically to 140 groups that cater for more than 2,500 children.

Over the years there have been many changes to Gaelic pre-school education, as to pre-school education in general. Most of them have been excellent, although some have not been so good; with every good change comes a bad change. One of the positive changes has been that local authorities now establish pre-school groups, which is excellent. However, the problem is that we have passed groups on to local authorities that are not so keen to open Gaelic pre-school groups. They have not created any new groups; they have simply taken over the ones that we had established. That worries us, as we do not recognise the kind of development that we would like, and the language does not gain any advantage from it.

We look after children between the ages of one month and three years on the mainland of Scotland. Until now, we were working with children aged between one month and five years, but we have lost three quarters of the children between the ages of three and five to the new nurseries that have been established by local authorities.

It takes more than 2,000 hours to bring a child who does not speak Gaelic to fluency in the language. I know that you are talking about education in general, and languages such as French and German. I ask you to think about the way in which languages are taught—not just Gaelic, but other languages besides. In the next year, we expect that we will reduce the number of hours that it takes to learn Gaelic from 2,000 to 1,000, so that more children will be fluent in Gaelic. New teaching methods will be useful not only in this country, but all over the world, and we have an advantage in that the children speak Gaelic before they go to school. We hope that children who enter nursery schools at the age of three, even if they come from non-Gaelic speaking homes, will be fluent in Gaelic, through the use of teaching methods that are not used elsewhere. As we say in English, we are at the cutting edge, and those who work in education elsewhere in Scotland do not know of the methods that we are using to help children to become fluent Gaelic speakers.

We would like English to be mentioned in the bill. We would also like Gaelic to be mentioned in the bill. It is unnatural to publish a bill of this sort without mentioning the languages with which we are working, especially as we are now part of Europe. I hope that in the years to come we will teach not only through English and Gaelic, but through Spanish, German and other languages. The biggest problem that we have is that the Education (Scotland) Act 1872 did not mention Gaelic. What happened after that? There were Gaelic schools at that time, but the Gaelic was quashed and practically killed because it was not mentioned in the act. From our perspective, it is very important that this bill should look into the minds of people who are working in education in Scotland.

There is another reason that we want Gaelic and English to be mentioned. We know that many officers who work in local authorities are against the Gaelic language; we meet them week after week. That does not happen higher up, where people have access to education and learning. If Gaelic were mentioned in the bill, officers who work at local authority level would not be able to say that their authority has nothing to do with Gaelic because they do not have it in their nursery schools. Some £250,000 was allocated to nursery schools but, when we speak to officers in local authorities, they can say that Gaelic is not mentioned in legislation, that it does not come into their work and that they need something in writing about Gaelic.

I have worked with officers in the local authorities and with councils. We do not worry about those officers who are supportive of the language, but we worry about those who are opposed to it and who would say, "If Gaelic is so important, why is it not mentioned in the bill?" It is important not only for pre-school children but for children at every other level that Gaelic should be mentioned in the bill. If it is not mentioned, we will not have the right to have a say in teaching methods and how we promote the language.

We are talking about education through the language. If a child works at mathematics through Gaelic, that is education. If children do history, geography or any other subject through the medium of Gaelic, they are learning, taking in information, thinking for themselves and passing on that information. It is all education. It is not just a subject. That is the view that I want to promote at this meeting.

In the same item of business

The Convener: Lab
We begin with a presentation by representatives supporting Gaelic-medium education. I will ask the three witnesses to introduce themselves, to explain whom t...
John MacLeod (Comann nam Pàrant (Nàiseanta)):
Mòran taing. Is mise Iain MacLeòid agus tha mi na mo chathraiche air Comann nam Pàrant (Nàiseanta). Ma chanas mi facal an toiseach mu dheidhinn Comann nam Pà...
The Convener: Lab
I am sorry. Can I just stop you for a moment. I have been told that members should be on channel 2 instead of channel 3. Please change your gadgets accordingly.
Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab): Lab
I knew that my Gaelic was bad, but I did not realise that my English was that bad as well.
The Convener: Lab
I am sorry to have interrupted you, Mr MacLeod. Please carry on.
John MacLeod:
Tapa leibh. Is mise Iain MacLeòid. Tha mi na mo chathraiche air Comann nam Pàrant (Nàiseanta) agus 's e buidheann nàiseanta tha sin a tha a' riochdachadh phà...
Following is the simultaneous interpretation:
Thank you. I am John MacLeod, the convener of Comann nam Pàrant, the National Gaelic Parents Association. CNP is a national representative body for parents w...
Allan Campbell (Comunn na Gàidhlig):
Tapa leat, Iain. Is mise Ailean Caimbeul agus tha mi na mo cheannard air Comunn na Gàidhlig, buidheann leasachaidh nàiseanta na Gàidhlig ann an Alba. Tha sin...
The Convener: Lab
I am sorry, I will have to stop you again. We are not receiving any simultaneous interpretation. Interruption. Thank you. Can you begin again, please.
Allan Campbell:
Feuchaidh mi a rithist. Bheil sibh ga mo chluinntinn a-nis? Tha e mòr leam a' ràdh gur ann a dh'aon ghnothaich a bhathas a' cur clos orm.
The Convener: Lab
I am sorry. We seem to be having some problems this morning. Interruption. I apologise for the delay. I will give you longer than 10 minutes, so do not worry...
Allan Campbell:
Tapa leibh. Is mise Ailean Caimbeul, ceannard Chomunn na Gàidhlig, buidheann leasachaidh nàiseanta na Gàidhlig. Tha sinne mar bhuidheann air a bhith a' tagra...
Following is the simultaneous interpretation:
Thank you. My name is Allan Campbell and I am the chief executive of Comunn na Gàidhlig, which is a Gaelic national development organisation. The organisatio...
Fionnlagh MacLeod (Comhairle Nan Sgoiltean Araich):
Is mise Fionnlagh MacLeòid. Tha mi ag obair aig Comhairle nan Sgoiltean Araich. Tha a' bhuidheann mar bhuidheann nàiseanta ag obair air feadh Alba gu lèir. T...
Following is the simultaneous interpretation:
I am Fionnlagh MacLeod. I work with Comhairle Nan Sgoiltean Araich, the Gaelic Playgroups Association. We are a national organisation, working throughout Sco...
The Convener: Lab
Thank you. I open the floor to questions from members of the committee. I remind members that the witnesses have graciously agreed to take questions in Engli...
Mr Macintosh: Lab
Thank you for coming. Before I start, I should declare an interest: my father is chairman of Sabhal Mòr Ostaig, the Gaelic college.I was very interested to h...
Allan Campbell:
There have been few advantages in working for the development of Gaelic over the past 15 to 20 years, principally because the number of Gaelic speakers in Sc...
Following is the simultaneous interpretation:
I spoke English almost without thinking there. It shows how the world we live in has affected me that I spoke English quite naturally. What have we learned f...
Fionnlagh MacLeod:
Dh'fhaighnich sibh dè a' bhuannachd a thàinig às a' Chuimrigh. Saoilidh mi gur e a' bhuannachd is motha a thàinig às a' Chuimrigh gu bheil foghlam na bhunait...
Following is the simultaneous interpretation:
You asked what we have learned from the Welsh situation. The greatest advantage is that language is fundamental. Not only do they have the opportunity to lea...
John MacLeod:
Tha mi a' smaoineachadh ann a bhith a' dèanamh coimeis eadar Alba agus a' Chuimrigh gu bheil na trì cinn a tha seo ag èirigh an còmhnaidh. 'S e sin còirichea...
Following is the simultaneous interpretation:
In comparing Scotland to Wales, we can consider three headings: rights, equality and continuity. Wales has all those things and we do not. It is very importa...
Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
A Mhairi, tha mi glè thoilichte gu bheil na comunnan aig a bheil uidh anns a Ghàidhlig còmhla riunn an diugh. Feumaidh mi bruidhinn anns a' Bheurla, tha eaga...
Following is the simultaneous interpretation: SNP
Mary, I am very pleased that people from the Gaelic organisations are with us today. Unfortunately I must pose my questions in English.
The member continued in English. SNP
Although unfortunately I must pose my questions in English, I am sure that that will not inhibit Allan and his colleagues from continuing to reply in Gaelic,...
Allan Campbell:
Chan eil mi smaoineachadh gun urrainn sin a bhith oir tha na buidhnean a tha strì airson na Gàidhlig a' strì airson, mar a bha mi a' ràdh na bu tràithe, airs...
Following is the simultaneous interpretation:
I do not think that that would be possible. The organisations that are striving for Gaelic are working hard to make progress at every level for the language,...
Michael Russell: SNP
There is an argument that Gaelic-medium education will be dealt with by a bill proposing secure status for Gaelic and that, therefore, there should be no dem...
Allan Campbell:
Tha mi smaoineachadh gum biodh e ceart agus iomchaidh gum biodh iomradh air foghlam ann am bile a thaobh inbhe thèarainte ach chan eil mi smaoineachadh gu le...