Committee
Justice Committee 22 June 2010
22 Jun 2010 · S3 · Justice Committee
Item of business
Legal Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Fergus Ewing
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During stage 1, concern was expressed about designated persons relating to the possibility of the bill allowing for non-solicitors to do legal work. I have, therefore, lodged amendments to provide further safeguards. Amendment 55 makes the head of legal services responsible for ensuring that designated persons who carry out legal work are adequately supervised in doing so and ensures that only designated persons can carry out legal work within a licensed provider. I consider that giving an explicit duty to the head of legal services to ensure adequate supervision of a designated person and stating explicitly that being designated does not affect what an individual can or cannot do by virtue of the reserved areas in section 32 of the Solicitors (Scotland) Act 1980—in addition to making designated persons subject to the professional principles in amendment 46—addresses the concerns that have been raised. Indeed, amendment 55 goes much further than the current position in traditional firms, whereby an unqualified person such as a paralegal is able to undertake legal work, including work in the reserved areas, simply on the basis that such a person is employed by a solicitor.At present, when an unqualified person behaves badly, the solicitor, rather than the unqualified person, will face disciplinary proceedings. Again, the bill goes much further than the current position in traditional firms, as section 44 provides that persons—solicitors or non-solicitors—can be disqualified from being designated. Furthermore, when non-solicitor designated persons are also investors, they could be banned from having an interest in a licensed provider because of improper behaviour under the proposed new section that is provided for in amendment 114.Amendment 52 inserts the word “written” into section 47(2) so that the licensed provider will have to indicate designation in writing.Amendment 53 deals with drafting.09:45 Amendment 55 inserts a new section, “Working context”, following section 47. As has been noted, the new section makes the head of legal services responsible for ensuring that designated persons who undertake legal work are adequately supervised and provides that only designated persons can undertake legal work in a licensed provider.Amendment 54 is consequential to amendment 55.Amendment 330, which is in Robert Brown’s name, would remove the provision that allows an investor in a licensed provider to be a designated person. If the amendment were agreed to, it would prevent a solicitor or non-solicitor investor from doing legal work in the licensed provider. I want to ensure that all investors can be designated to do legal work. However, to protect consumers, all non-solicitor investors will be subject to the rigorous fitness-for-involvement test.It is important that those who have the most interest in the business can invest and work in the licensed provider. Accordingly, I invite Robert Brown not to move amendment 330.I move amendment 52.
In the same item of business
The Convener
The principal business of the morning is day 3 of stage 2 proceedings on the Legal Services (Scotland) Bill. There is no limit as to how far the committee ca...
The Convener
Amendment 44, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 45 to 48, 319, 49, 321, 323, 50, 51 and 102.
The Minister for Community Safety (Fergus Ewing)
Amendment 44 will add the qualification “valid” to “practising certificate” in relation to heads of legal services, with the effect that a head of legal serv...
The Convener
No doubt Mr Brown will bear in mind the minister’s comments with regard to the principle of the Lord President’s involvement, which I would have thought is n...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD)
As the minister said, amendments 319, 321 and 323 relate to the powers of the Lord President in relation to the important functions of the head of legal serv...
The Convener
The question is, that amendment 319 be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Convener
There will be a division.ForAitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and K...
The Convener
The result of the division is: For 5, Against 0, Abstentions 3.Amendment 319 agreed to.Section 39, as amended, agreed to.Section 40—Head of PracticeAmendment...
The Convener
The question is, that amendment 321 be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Convener
There will be a division.ForAitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and K...
The Convener
The result of the division is: For 5, Against 0, Abstentions 3.Amendment 321 agreed to.Section 40, as amended, agreed to.Section 41—Practice CommitteeAmendme...
The Convener
The question is, that amendment 323 be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Convener
There will be a division.ForAitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and K...
The Convener
The result of the division is: For 5, Against 0, Abstentions 3.Amendment 323 agreed to.Section 41, as amended, agreed to.Section 42 agreed to.Section 43—Chal...
The Convener
Amendment 52, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 53, 330, 54 and 55.
Fergus Ewing
During stage 1, concern was expressed about designated persons relating to the possibility of the bill allowing for non-solicitors to do legal work. I have, ...
Robert Brown
I support the Government amendments in the group, but designation is a curious concept in the bill and it is interesting that its purpose is not defined. Des...
The Convener
Mr Brown shows characteristic modesty.An arguable point is involved, but perhaps some clarification is required about the total intent. We can see what the G...
Fergus Ewing
We all want to move in the same direction. The Government’s amendments were framed to meet concerns that the committee expressed after stage 1. The bill make...
The Convener
I will allow Robert Brown to make another contribution.
Robert Brown
I accept the minister’s point about possible unintended consequences. That issue needs to be explored further. However, will he address the issue of investor...
Fergus Ewing
Our proposal would mean that such designated persons—that is, non-solicitors in legal services providers—would nonetheless be able to be investors. I think t...
The Convener
That is most unkind.
Fergus Ewing
That is not necessarily a criticism, convener. I would be more than happy to discuss the matter further with Mr Brown if he remains not 100 per cent persuade...
The Convener
When you are in a hole, minister, you should stop digging.Amendment 52 agreed to.Amendment 53 moved—Fergus Ewing—and agreed to.
The Convener
I invite Robert Brown to move or not move amendment 330.
Robert Brown
I am not entirely satisfied, but I will discuss the matter further, if I may. I will not move amendment 330 at this stage.
The Convener
I think that that is the appropriate way forward.Amendment 330 not moved.Amendment 54 moved—Fergus Ewing—and agreed to.Section 47, as amended, agreed to.Afte...
The Convener
The next group is on outside investors. Amendment 104, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 110, 110A, 113 and 113A.
Fergus Ewing
Amendment 104 is a drafting amendment.Amendment 110 relates to the fitness-for-involvement test. During stage 1, the committee rightly focused much attention...