Committee
Justice Committee 27 April 2010
27 Apr 2010 · S3 · Justice Committee
Item of business
Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The Convener
Watch on SPTV
I concede that this is a complex and difficult matter. All the amendments in the group deal with the age of criminal responsibility or the age at which children may be prosecuted. I have some difficulties on the issue, especially with amendment 379. Robert Brown is right to argue that Scotland seems to be out of sync with most other jurisdictions, but I am not relaxed about changing the law radically in this respect.The matter first came to the committee’s attention when the Lord Advocate, in giving evidence on a somewhat unrelated matter, raised the issue of child prosecutions. I must confess that I was a little perplexed by her intervention under that heading, but it was worthy of note. Her evidence related to the fact that only a handful of children between the ages of eight and 12 have been prosecuted in recent years. It seems that the Crown Office is adopting a sensitive approach to the matter. That being the case, I am not persuaded that it is appropriate for us to agree that there should be no prosecutions until the age of 12, as Robert Brown proposes in amendment 379.My submission in amendments 126 and 127 is that children under the age of 12 should not normally be prosecuted. Basically, the amendments would put down in statute the reality of the situation. As we stated in our stage 1 report, sometimes children of quite tender years can do terrible things. I do not want us to be in the position of not having an appropriate sanction in place to deal with the case of an 11-year-old who stabs two children in a school playground, for example. It is common knowledge that, when children of that age commit acts of serious criminality, the victims are usually other young children. We must be sensitive in that respect.I do not suggest for one moment that such cases are everyday occurrences—they are not. Recently, the Bulger case was revisited in somewhat odd circumstances, but there was also the case of the two young boys in Doncaster who committed quite horrendous acts of violence. There are exceptions with which the law must be equipped to deal. I am not content that the law will be so equipped if amendment 379 is agreed to.Amendment 389, in the name of Richard Baker, has some merit, in that he seeks a report back from the Scottish Government. I would be minded to support the amendment but for the fact that it seems to accept an increase to 12 in the age of prosecution. This is a difficult and sensitive matter. I agree that there are dangers in dealing with it through prosecutions, but there are also real dangers in dealing with it through a blanket prohibition of prosecutions. On balance, that is even more dangerous.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Agenda item 2 is the principal business of the day—the fifth day of stage 2 proceedings on the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Bill. The committee ...
The Convener
Amendment 379, in the name of Robert Brown, is grouped with amendments 126, 127, 389 and 549. If amendment 379 is agreed to, amendments 126 and 127 will be p...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD)
Scotland has—notoriously—the lowest age of criminal responsibility in Europe. The idea of prosecuting a child of eight—or, indeed, of 11—is abhorrent and rid...
The Convener
I concede that this is a complex and difficult matter. All the amendments in the group deal with the age of criminal responsibility or the age at which child...
Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab)
As this is my final amendment at stage 2, I thank the clerks for all their assistance during the process.The convener has alluded to the fact that the issues...
Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP)
I will start where Richard Baker left off. I agree with his closing comments, in which he made some valid points about the age of criminal responsibility. Al...
Angela Constance (Livingston) (SNP)
It will come as no surprise to anybody on the committee that I have considerable sympathy for Robert Brown’s amendment 379. Although the children’s hearings ...
The Convener
There being no further comments from members, I ask the minister to defend himself to Ms Constance.
The Minister for Community Safety (Fergus Ewing)
I am happy to take up that kind invitation, convener. I welcome all members’ contributions to the debate. This is a difficult and sensitive issue, as members...
Robert Brown
I am particularly reassured by the minister’s final comment. We are, perhaps, all left a little bit perplexed about the difference between raising the age of...
The Convener
It is an important issue and it is appropriate that it be debated as thoroughly as possible. The question is, that amendment 379 be agreed to. Are we agreed?...
The Convener
There will be a division.ForBrown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)AgainstAitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Constance, Angela (Livingst...
The Convener
The result of the division is: For 1, Against 7, Abstentions 0.Amendment 379 disagreed to.Amendment 126 moved—Bill Aitken.
The Convener
The question is, that amendment 126 be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Convener
There will be a division.ForAitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)AgainstBrown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Constance, Angela (Livingst...
The Convener
The result of the division is: For 1, Against 7, Abstentions 0.Amendment 126 disagreed to.Amendment 127 not moved.
Richard Baker
Given what has been said about the maths, and in light of the reassurances that have been given, I will not move amendment 389.Amendment 389 not moved.Sectio...
The Convener
Amendment 128, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, is grouped with amendment 129.
Fergus Ewing
Many statutes provide that when a body corporate is guilty of an offence, and it is proved that the offence was committed with the consent or connivance of a...
The Convener
As other members have no comments, I will make some of my own. The amendments in this group are predicated on the need to plug a loophole that seems to exist...
The Convener
Amendment 130, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, is grouped with amendment 131.
Fergus Ewing
Amendment 130 is a minor technical amendment, the purpose of which is to change the current reference to “all reasonable hours” in section 40(2)(b) to “a rea...
The Convener
The purpose of amendment 131 was to probe exactly how this was going to pan out at the end of the day. I was seeking to avoid evidence in court being valued ...
Robert Brown
This is a difficult area—there are no two ways about it. One must be cautious about making significant changes in procedures that have applied for a long tim...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
I support the amendment in the name of the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and the sentiments that the minister expressed in his contribution. Being required t...
The Convener
Amendment 403, in the name of Margaret Curran, is in a group on its own. I apologise to Margaret for the fact that she came to last week’s meeting but was un...
Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
It has been most illuminating to be here. I thank the clerks for their assistance in drafting amendment 403. The amendment is simple but significant. It repr...
Robert Brown
Margaret Curran has raised a very interesting issue. The Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003, which a previous Government introduced, brought in victim stat...
Angela Constance
I cannot imagine that anybody round the table would be unsympathetic to the need to create more opportunities for victims to be heard at various points in th...
James Kelly
Margaret Curran has lodged an important amendment, which I support.I would like to address a specific issue that is not the same as the one that Margaret Cur...