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Committee

Justice Committee 13 April 2010

13 Apr 2010 · S3 · Justice Committee
Item of business
Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab) Watch on SPTV
The proposal for a legislative presumption against custodial sentences of six months and under has been a focus for debate. My amendment 1 seeks to give effect to the conclusion in the committee’s report that the proposal should not proceed. I am grateful for the convener’s support for my amendment; he has previously highlighted some of the key concerns about this ill-judged proposal.I am confident that our judiciary already seeks to use imprisonment as a last resort and only in cases in which the offence has been serious. For more minor offences, such as fine defaulting, we have already seen great reductions in the number of offenders receiving custodial sentences. The presumption will create an unnecessary bureaucracy by having courts provide reasons for imposing sentences of six months or under, which will delay court processes, but it is not just about that. The policy drive that was first outlined in the Scottish National Party’s 2007 manifesto was clear that in all but the most exceptional circumstances such custodial sentences would no longer apply.Ministers have made it clear that the proposal is an arbitrary measure to reduce the prison population and to make savings on that basis, but the cabinet secretary’s officials made it clear to the Finance Committee that the proposal would not produce savings in the prison estate because the infrastructure would need to be maintained. The crucial issue is that the interests of justice must be paramount; therefore, sentences should be based on what is just and appropriate, not simply on prison capacity. To do otherwise is not to serve the victims of crime.The presumption applies not only to minor but to serious offences. It would apply to 40 per cent of those convicted of indecent assault, to 88 per cent of those convicted of crimes of dishonesty and, particularly seriously in our view, to two thirds of those convicted of knife carrying. In its evidence, Scottish Women’s Aid highlighted that the presumption could“have a negative impact on women, children and young people experiencing domestic abuse.”When I quizzed the First Minister on the matter, he said that serious crimes should receive longer sentences, but that is to seriously misrepresent the presumption. There is no proposal that such offenders should receive longer sentences; there is a proposal only that there should be a presumption against their serving any custodial sentence. That is what the Government’s plans arbitrarily to reduce the prison population are all about.The argument is made that those who go to jail are more likely to reoffend—Robert Brown made that argument again today—but the unfortunate reality is that by the time that an offender receives a custodial sentence they will normally have received numerous different disposals for other offences. They are, by definition, a repeat offender by the time that they go into prison. Even those who agree with the presumption point out that it must be accompanied by increased investment in more effective community sentences. Instead we have seen cuts in funding to those organisations with expertise in addressing reoffending, the Scottish Government has vetoed the establishment of the community court in Glasgow, and we believe that there is a funding gap of tens of millions of pounds in the Government’s plans, which will demand thousands of additional community sentences.Despite Robert Brown’s support for the Scottish Government’s general approach, his amendment 388 and related amendments, and his amendment 102 in the next group, highlight the awareness that the extra investment in robust community sentences that is needed to give any logic to the proposal is simply not there. Indeed, it is from information revealed to Robert Brown that we know that only a fraction of community sentences start within the target period of seven days. We also know that, under the current Government, a third of community sentences are being breached. I simply do not recognise the improvement to which Robert Brown referred. The paucity of robust alternatives to custodial sentences under the current Government means that the proposal is not only nonsensical, but detrimental to community safety and certainly to the justice system. The same principles apply to Robert Brown’s proposal to change the presumption to one against custodial sentences of three months and under. For example, it would cover 28 per cent of those convicted of indecent assault, over half of those convicted of crimes of dishonesty, and a third of those convicted of knife carrying. We will oppose amendments 100 and 101 and, on the basis that we seek to remove section 17, we will oppose Robert Brown’s amendment 102 in the next group.

In the same item of business

The Convener
Item 2 is day 3 of stage 2 proceedings on the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Bill. The committee will not proceed beyond the end of part 3 today; ...
The Convener
Amendment 399, in the name of Rhoda Grant, is grouped with amendments 400 to 402, 402A, 378 and 544.
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
First, I pay tribute to Ann Moulds, her group Action Scotland Against Stalking and their vigorous campaign to highlight the problem of stalking in Scotland, ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)
Amendment 402 is intended to create a statutory offence of stalking. It would make it an offence for a person to engage in a course of conduct with the inten...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD)
In this group, amendments 402A and 544 are in my name. As Rhoda Grant and the cabinet secretary have indicated, the group raises a number of overlapping issu...
Stewart Maxwell
I entirely agree with Robert Brown’s comments on amendment 400 and the role of the Crown Office, so I will not repeat his arguments. In relation to amendment...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
I support Rhoda Grant’s amendments. She has put her case well and I pay tribute to her for the amount of work that she has done to get the amendments to this...
Nigel Don (North East Scotland) (SNP)
I will briefly address amendment 378. As James Kelly noted, we have received several submissions on the issue. I do not buy them lock, stock and barrel, but ...
The Convener
The series of amendments that Rhoda Grant, the Government and Robert Brown have lodged seeks to build on the protection that is given—largely to women—under ...
Rhoda Grant
I have listened carefully to what committee members and the cabinet secretary have said. On reflection, given the concerns about amendments 399, 400 and 401,...
The Convener
I should have given the cabinet secretary another bite at the cherry. Do you have anything to say?
Kenny MacAskill
I have listened to the committee’s comments, and I think that Stewart Maxwell’s suggestion is appropriate. We understand the committee’s desire to address th...
The Convener
That is a constructive contribution.Amendment 399, by agreement, withdrawn.Amendments 400 and 401 not moved.
The Convener
Amendment 5, in the name of Rhoda Grant, is grouped with amendments 6 and 7.
Rhoda Grant
A non-harassment order is an order that gives a victim protection from further abuse. The order comes with powers of arrest, and breach of the order is a cri...
Kenny MacAskill
We fully understand Rhoda Grant’s sentiments. However, section 15 already provides that a non-harassment order may be made after a conviction for a single of...
The Convener
Amendment 5 is entirely meritorious, but I question its necessity, given the other provisions in the bill.
Rhoda Grant
I seek leave to withdraw amendment 5, as the cabinet secretary has given the reassurance that I sought. He has indicated that evidence of a course of conduct...
The Convener
Amendment 100, in the name of Robert Brown, is grouped with amendments 101, 388, 1, 392 and 393.
Robert Brown
Section 17 is one of the most important sections in the bill. I will deal with it at two levels: the principle and the practicalities. In principle, the poli...
Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab)
The proposal for a legislative presumption against custodial sentences of six months and under has been a focus for debate. My amendment 1 seeks to give effe...
Angela Constance (Livingston) (SNP)
I cannot support the detail of Robert Brown’s amendments 100 and 101, but I support in principle his logic in eloquently arguing against short-term sentences...
James Kelly
I support amendment 1 and oppose amendments 100, 101 and 388.One of the arguments that is used by those who argue for a presumption against short-term senten...
Kenny MacAskill
The presumption against custodial sentences of six months or less has been the subject of some debate and attacks by parts of the Opposition. We do not doubt...
The Convener
I call Robert Brown to wind up the debate and to press or withdraw amendment 100.
Robert Brown
I am bound to say that there has not exactly been a meeting of minds in the debate. I am somewhat disappointed by the cabinet secretary’s response to what we...
The Convener
The question is, that amendment 100 be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Convener
There will be a division.ForBrown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)AgainstAitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Constance, Angela (Livingst...
The Convener
The result of the division is: For 1, Against 7, Abstentions 0.Amendment 100 disagreed to.Amendment 101 not moved.Amendment 388 moved—Robert Brown.
The Convener
The question is, that amendment 388 be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.