Chamber
Plenary, 10 Feb 2010
10 Feb 2010 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I have given my support to Ms Grahame to ensure that the bill is debated both in committee and in the chamber. I have done so because I am concerned that the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 may not now provide adequate protection to members of the public—we have certainly heard evidence of that today.
As many other members have done, I want to emphasise that the bill is by no means an attack on dog owners—far from it—but it is a serious attempt to put in place training for people and animals when such training is necessary, and to implement enforcement procedures such as dog control notices.
I applaud Alex Neil, whose elevation to high office meant that he could no longer proceed with the bill, and Christine Grahame, for introducing it. The simple focus of their concern, which involves a change of emphasis from breed to deed—and the deeds that very few dogs carry out—is correct. The Local Government and Communities Committee's evidence sessions on the bill were among the most informative that I have taken part in in more than two years, and there have been a number of extremely good and heartfelt speeches in today's debate.
I want to touch on what members have said about some of the key points in the bill. The minister was among those who said, quite rightly, that the bill will help dog owners to become more responsible. That is very much the case, given that it adopts a carrot-and-stick approach. It makes it clear that when a dog needs training, that will be a requirement. The associated issues of the cost and availability of such training should be examined in more detail at stage 2 but, in many ways, the bill provides a preventive regime, which is most welcome.
Most members have dealt with the bill's focus on deed not breed. Michael McMahon was quite right to say that the bill is a welcome step forward from the 1991 act, which David McLetchie and others, including me, feel has not worked. It had the wrong emphasis and, as many members have said, was brought in in haste after some extremely concerning incidents in Scotland and elsewhere.
Only a few members have discussed the Scottish dog control database. Further investigation is required at stage 2 of the Government's ability to provide it and the costs that would be involved. It appears, certainly from the Scottish Parliament information centre briefing, that those costs might be relatively low. As I said in committee, I believe that there are advantages to having a centralised database when the information is largely already collected by our local authorities at a fairly minimal cost.
We have all encountered dangerous dogs during our campaigning, which involves putting our fingers through letterboxes. Fortunately, I and others have come back with our fingers intact, but there have been a few close shaves over the years. In 25 years of campaigning, the closest that I have come to being attacked is feeling the warm breath of a dog or a wet nose on my fingertips, and that is quite close enough. That is one reason why I feel that the focus on deed not breed is so important. The big dogs tend to give a warning when someone comes near their letterbox, whereas little terriers hide at the back and wait for the chance to snap at whoever puts their fingers through—including Tories.
Joking aside, the points that have been made are well founded. The issue is a serious one, whether we are talking about politicians, posties or anyone else. We must ensure that anyone who goes near dogs will be safer. Unfortunately, it is often close family members who are the victims of attacks.
I am supportive of the bill. I believe that it makes major improvements to existing legislation and that it will provide better protection for constituents of all ages. Although members of the Lib Dem group have a free vote on the issue, I hope that many of them, and others, will join me in supporting the bill at stage 1 later this afternoon.
As many other members have done, I want to emphasise that the bill is by no means an attack on dog owners—far from it—but it is a serious attempt to put in place training for people and animals when such training is necessary, and to implement enforcement procedures such as dog control notices.
I applaud Alex Neil, whose elevation to high office meant that he could no longer proceed with the bill, and Christine Grahame, for introducing it. The simple focus of their concern, which involves a change of emphasis from breed to deed—and the deeds that very few dogs carry out—is correct. The Local Government and Communities Committee's evidence sessions on the bill were among the most informative that I have taken part in in more than two years, and there have been a number of extremely good and heartfelt speeches in today's debate.
I want to touch on what members have said about some of the key points in the bill. The minister was among those who said, quite rightly, that the bill will help dog owners to become more responsible. That is very much the case, given that it adopts a carrot-and-stick approach. It makes it clear that when a dog needs training, that will be a requirement. The associated issues of the cost and availability of such training should be examined in more detail at stage 2 but, in many ways, the bill provides a preventive regime, which is most welcome.
Most members have dealt with the bill's focus on deed not breed. Michael McMahon was quite right to say that the bill is a welcome step forward from the 1991 act, which David McLetchie and others, including me, feel has not worked. It had the wrong emphasis and, as many members have said, was brought in in haste after some extremely concerning incidents in Scotland and elsewhere.
Only a few members have discussed the Scottish dog control database. Further investigation is required at stage 2 of the Government's ability to provide it and the costs that would be involved. It appears, certainly from the Scottish Parliament information centre briefing, that those costs might be relatively low. As I said in committee, I believe that there are advantages to having a centralised database when the information is largely already collected by our local authorities at a fairly minimal cost.
We have all encountered dangerous dogs during our campaigning, which involves putting our fingers through letterboxes. Fortunately, I and others have come back with our fingers intact, but there have been a few close shaves over the years. In 25 years of campaigning, the closest that I have come to being attacked is feeling the warm breath of a dog or a wet nose on my fingertips, and that is quite close enough. That is one reason why I feel that the focus on deed not breed is so important. The big dogs tend to give a warning when someone comes near their letterbox, whereas little terriers hide at the back and wait for the chance to snap at whoever puts their fingers through—including Tories.
Joking aside, the points that have been made are well founded. The issue is a serious one, whether we are talking about politicians, posties or anyone else. We must ensure that anyone who goes near dogs will be safer. Unfortunately, it is often close family members who are the victims of attacks.
I am supportive of the bill. I believe that it makes major improvements to existing legislation and that it will provide better protection for constituents of all ages. Although members of the Lib Dem group have a free vote on the issue, I hope that many of them, and others, will join me in supporting the bill at stage 1 later this afternoon.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-5581, in the name of Christine Grahame, on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill.
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
It is with great pleasure that I open the debate on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Local Government and Communities Committee for its scrut...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
In country areas, dogs often escape from gardens. If, for instance, a dog took a rabbit, a reasonable person might conclude that somebody would be apprehensi...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
The member has just illustrated why one would not try to pin down every circumstance. The facts and circumstances of every case determine what is reasonable....
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member must now wind up.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I have other points to make, Presiding Officer. I hope that I can address them in my summing up.I move,That the Parliament agrees to the general principles o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
I call Duncan McNeil to speak on behalf of the Local Government and Communities Committee.
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):
Lab
I apologise, Presiding Officer, for arriving late in the chamber. I am getting confused in my old age. I noted down three different times for the debate—2.45...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Does the member recognise that Dundee City Council agreed with the figures in the financial memorandum? Not all local authorities in Scotland took the same v...
Duncan McNeil:
Lab
The member is correct. However, councils operate at different levels; some have no dog wardens at this time. If the bill is passed, there will be an expectat...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
I thank Christine Grahame and the non-Executive bills unit for their work. Like other members, I commend Alex Neil on laying the foundations for the bill and...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):
Con
Historic.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Historic.
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD):
LD
It's no historic any more.
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
You can have it as "historic" if you want. Anyway, those discussions would have to take place. I can tell Mr McLetchie—Mr McNeil referred to this—that we are...
Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab):
Lab
I congratulate Christine Grahame on introducing the bill and on all her efforts since June last year, when she picked up the baton that was passed to her by ...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
With respect, does the member appreciate the distinction between civil and criminal law? There is no mandatory requirement for corroboration in a civil matter.
Michael McMahon:
Lab
That argument has been made, but the issue still requires scrutiny, because what frightens one person might not concern another. The "how long is a piece of ...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):
Con
I apologise for my late arrival in the chamber, particularly to Christine Grahame, and to Duncan McNeil, during whose speech I arrived. I was caught out by t...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I ask the member to desist from calling me a poodle.
David McLetchie:
Con
A poodle?
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Yes.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Can we get on with the bill, please?
David McLetchie:
Con
I had no intention of calling Ms Grahame a poodle. I commend Alex Neil for his work on the bill proposal and Christine Grahame for the characteristic vigour ...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
The Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill was introduced on 22 June 2009 by Christine Grahame MSP. The bill seeks to modernise the law on the control of dogs and h...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Mike Pringle:
LD
I do not have time. I am sorry.The consultation by Alex Neil MSP dealt with the definition of a dog "being dangerously out of control" and elicited a wide ra...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate Christine Grahame on her work on the bill. We do not know how many dogs there are in Scotland, but we guesstimate that there are between half ...
Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab):
Lab
I speak as a dog lover who has had the pleasure of owning several dogs over the course of my life. I also speak as someone who has twice received hospital tr...
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD):
LD
I have given my support to Ms Grahame to ensure that the bill is debated both in committee and in the chamber. I have done so because I am concerned that the...