Chamber
Plenary, 10 Feb 2010
10 Feb 2010 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I speak as a dog lover who has had the pleasure of owning several dogs over the course of my life. I also speak as someone who has twice received hospital treatment due to attacks by dogs—not my own dogs. I was a signatory to the bill, and I have watched its progress with interest.
The principles of the bill have received support from a range of organisations: the Dogs Trust, the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, Advocates for Animals, the Kennel Club, the British Veterinary Association and the Communication Workers Union. One of the first questions I was asked when I visited local sorting offices before Christmas was, "What's happening with Christine Grahame's bill?"
The Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 makes it an offence to allow a dog to be dangerously out of control in a public place or in a private place where the dog is not permitted to be. In most instances when postal workers are attacked—indeed, in the two instances when I was attacked—the dog is in its own territory. Some 70 per cent of the 6,000 attacks by dogs on postal workers in the UK take place on private property where the dog's presence is permitted, and the extension in the bill of liability for a dog that is out of control to its behaviour in all places would help to protect those workers.
The bill rightly recognises the behaviour of dog owners as the primary cause of attacks by dogs. There are two principal reasons for that. The first is ownership of dogs by people who do not understand how to train and control them—if a human being is not in control, a dog may become aggressive because it is nervous or feels that it has to take control itself. The other reason, which David McLetchie and Mike Pringle referred to, is the deliberate encouragement of aggressive canine behaviour as part of the owner's more general antisocial behaviour. Dogs were used in warfare in many early civilisations, and unfortunately some are still obtained and used deliberately for the purposes of intimidation.
While I support Christine Grahame's bill, I believe that, as it stands, there is an anomaly in it. The bill concentrates on deed not breed, but the list of prohibited dogs—pit bulls, Japanese tosa, fila brasileiro and dogo argentino, which sound a bit like cartoon characters but are actually large US mastiff-type dogs—will remain. Only pit bulls have been an issue in Britain; the others are virtually unknown here.
The Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 was, in part, a response to the tragic killing of an 11-year-old girl in Dunoon by two Rottweilers. Other breeds, including Staffordshire bull terriers and one of my favourite breeds, the Jack Russell terrier, have been known to attack people. Indeed, Jack Russells have a bad record of on occasion killing young babies.
Pit bulls also have a bad reputation, but the pit bull is not actually a breed of dog. It is a type of dog that is defined by the characteristics of the American pit bull. It is therefore defined by physique and conformation, and not by lineage. A Staffordshire bull terrier crossed with a Labrador could produce a pit bull terrier type dog, and anyone who obtains a pup that grows up into that type of dog is in theory committing an offence if they do not have it destroyed. The law is unworkable in practice, which we know as there are many pit bull type dogs still living in the UK, some of which are dangerous but most of which are probably not.
The Kennel Club, which also submitted evidence on behalf of the dangerous dogs act study group, states in its own submission that
"it may not be practical in the current political climate to remove the list of banned breeds".
However, if the argument really is about deed not breed, that is a bit of a cop-out. Owners who have out-of-control, aggressive pit bull type dogs should be prosecuted; owners who have well-disciplined and well-behaved pit bull type dogs should not be forced to have them destroyed if the dog's only offence is the way that it looks.
My preference would be the repeal of sections 1 and 2 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, although I understand that that may be difficult at the moment. If that is not acceptable, I believe that the index of exempted dogs should be reopened to owner-led applications, which would enable the responsible owners of pit bull type dogs to apply for exemption and to register them if certain requirements are met, such as muzzling. I therefore suggest that the Scottish ministers invoke their powers under subsections (5) and (6) of section 1 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 to reopen the index of exempted dogs to owner-led applications.
The principles of the bill have received support from a range of organisations: the Dogs Trust, the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, Advocates for Animals, the Kennel Club, the British Veterinary Association and the Communication Workers Union. One of the first questions I was asked when I visited local sorting offices before Christmas was, "What's happening with Christine Grahame's bill?"
The Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 makes it an offence to allow a dog to be dangerously out of control in a public place or in a private place where the dog is not permitted to be. In most instances when postal workers are attacked—indeed, in the two instances when I was attacked—the dog is in its own territory. Some 70 per cent of the 6,000 attacks by dogs on postal workers in the UK take place on private property where the dog's presence is permitted, and the extension in the bill of liability for a dog that is out of control to its behaviour in all places would help to protect those workers.
The bill rightly recognises the behaviour of dog owners as the primary cause of attacks by dogs. There are two principal reasons for that. The first is ownership of dogs by people who do not understand how to train and control them—if a human being is not in control, a dog may become aggressive because it is nervous or feels that it has to take control itself. The other reason, which David McLetchie and Mike Pringle referred to, is the deliberate encouragement of aggressive canine behaviour as part of the owner's more general antisocial behaviour. Dogs were used in warfare in many early civilisations, and unfortunately some are still obtained and used deliberately for the purposes of intimidation.
While I support Christine Grahame's bill, I believe that, as it stands, there is an anomaly in it. The bill concentrates on deed not breed, but the list of prohibited dogs—pit bulls, Japanese tosa, fila brasileiro and dogo argentino, which sound a bit like cartoon characters but are actually large US mastiff-type dogs—will remain. Only pit bulls have been an issue in Britain; the others are virtually unknown here.
The Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 was, in part, a response to the tragic killing of an 11-year-old girl in Dunoon by two Rottweilers. Other breeds, including Staffordshire bull terriers and one of my favourite breeds, the Jack Russell terrier, have been known to attack people. Indeed, Jack Russells have a bad record of on occasion killing young babies.
Pit bulls also have a bad reputation, but the pit bull is not actually a breed of dog. It is a type of dog that is defined by the characteristics of the American pit bull. It is therefore defined by physique and conformation, and not by lineage. A Staffordshire bull terrier crossed with a Labrador could produce a pit bull terrier type dog, and anyone who obtains a pup that grows up into that type of dog is in theory committing an offence if they do not have it destroyed. The law is unworkable in practice, which we know as there are many pit bull type dogs still living in the UK, some of which are dangerous but most of which are probably not.
The Kennel Club, which also submitted evidence on behalf of the dangerous dogs act study group, states in its own submission that
"it may not be practical in the current political climate to remove the list of banned breeds".
However, if the argument really is about deed not breed, that is a bit of a cop-out. Owners who have out-of-control, aggressive pit bull type dogs should be prosecuted; owners who have well-disciplined and well-behaved pit bull type dogs should not be forced to have them destroyed if the dog's only offence is the way that it looks.
My preference would be the repeal of sections 1 and 2 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, although I understand that that may be difficult at the moment. If that is not acceptable, I believe that the index of exempted dogs should be reopened to owner-led applications, which would enable the responsible owners of pit bull type dogs to apply for exemption and to register them if certain requirements are met, such as muzzling. I therefore suggest that the Scottish ministers invoke their powers under subsections (5) and (6) of section 1 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 to reopen the index of exempted dogs to owner-led applications.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-5581, in the name of Christine Grahame, on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill.
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
It is with great pleasure that I open the debate on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Local Government and Communities Committee for its scrut...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
In country areas, dogs often escape from gardens. If, for instance, a dog took a rabbit, a reasonable person might conclude that somebody would be apprehensi...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
The member has just illustrated why one would not try to pin down every circumstance. The facts and circumstances of every case determine what is reasonable....
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member must now wind up.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I have other points to make, Presiding Officer. I hope that I can address them in my summing up.I move,That the Parliament agrees to the general principles o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
I call Duncan McNeil to speak on behalf of the Local Government and Communities Committee.
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):
Lab
I apologise, Presiding Officer, for arriving late in the chamber. I am getting confused in my old age. I noted down three different times for the debate—2.45...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Does the member recognise that Dundee City Council agreed with the figures in the financial memorandum? Not all local authorities in Scotland took the same v...
Duncan McNeil:
Lab
The member is correct. However, councils operate at different levels; some have no dog wardens at this time. If the bill is passed, there will be an expectat...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
I thank Christine Grahame and the non-Executive bills unit for their work. Like other members, I commend Alex Neil on laying the foundations for the bill and...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):
Con
Historic.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Historic.
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD):
LD
It's no historic any more.
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
You can have it as "historic" if you want. Anyway, those discussions would have to take place. I can tell Mr McLetchie—Mr McNeil referred to this—that we are...
Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab):
Lab
I congratulate Christine Grahame on introducing the bill and on all her efforts since June last year, when she picked up the baton that was passed to her by ...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
With respect, does the member appreciate the distinction between civil and criminal law? There is no mandatory requirement for corroboration in a civil matter.
Michael McMahon:
Lab
That argument has been made, but the issue still requires scrutiny, because what frightens one person might not concern another. The "how long is a piece of ...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):
Con
I apologise for my late arrival in the chamber, particularly to Christine Grahame, and to Duncan McNeil, during whose speech I arrived. I was caught out by t...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I ask the member to desist from calling me a poodle.
David McLetchie:
Con
A poodle?
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Yes.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Can we get on with the bill, please?
David McLetchie:
Con
I had no intention of calling Ms Grahame a poodle. I commend Alex Neil for his work on the bill proposal and Christine Grahame for the characteristic vigour ...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
The Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill was introduced on 22 June 2009 by Christine Grahame MSP. The bill seeks to modernise the law on the control of dogs and h...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Mike Pringle:
LD
I do not have time. I am sorry.The consultation by Alex Neil MSP dealt with the definition of a dog "being dangerously out of control" and elicited a wide ra...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate Christine Grahame on her work on the bill. We do not know how many dogs there are in Scotland, but we guesstimate that there are between half ...
Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab):
Lab
I speak as a dog lover who has had the pleasure of owning several dogs over the course of my life. I also speak as someone who has twice received hospital tr...
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD):
LD
I have given my support to Ms Grahame to ensure that the bill is debated both in committee and in the chamber. I have done so because I am concerned that the...