Chamber
Plenary, 10 Feb 2010
10 Feb 2010 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I congratulate Christine Grahame on her work on the bill. We do not know how many dogs there are in Scotland, but we guesstimate that there are between half a million and a million. I wonder whether there is a connection with the Scots language itself in terms of the ambiguity of its syntax, an absolutely inscrutable example of which the great Conservative politician John Buchan encountered in the Borders: "Whae belangs this wee dug?"
It is a fact that, in 2006-07, 623 offences were recorded under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991—the numbers have been steadily increasing since 1999. The 1991 act banned a number of breeds as particularly dangerous, and the intention was that they would die out altogether. However, there are still perhaps 10,000 pit bull terriers in Britain, though it is reassuring that there are not many Japanese tosas, which I have seen defined as a sort of canine sumo that weighs up to 17 stone—members will know one when they see one.
The Dangerous Dogs (Amendment) Act 1997 amended the 1991 act by allowing owners of four dangerous breeds to reapply for their dogs to be placed on the index of exempted dogs, subject to various conditions. However, that legislation placed great emphasis on the dog and less emphasis, as people have pointed out, on the owner. Christine Grahame's bill nails the owners of out-of-control dogs. Dog notices served on owners of such dogs will ensure that offending dogs are microchipped. As we have heard, authorised officers will be able to impose further conditions.
Vagueness about dog numbers potentially raises a financial issue, as Michael McMahon pointed out. A long-term decrease in dog attacks and incidents involving dogs will mean savings. In that context, the reintroduction of dog licences might be worth considering. The history of dog licences slept and slept: they were 7/6d when they were first imposed in Queen Victoria's day and remained at that price into the decimal age, until Thatcher abolished them in 1987. In Europe, dog licences do not seem to be a problem. Dogs must be registered, with tattooing and micro-chipping often required, in almost all European Union countries. Ireland collects an annual licence fee, and it costs about 150 euros a year in Germany to run an Alsatian. In Switzerland and Austria, mandatory registration and insurance are accompanied by a dog tax that is paid annually to local authorities. Incidentally, one should always remember the great definition of American democracy, which is that everyone is elected—from dog catchers to Presidents. They sometimes seem to make terrible mistakes, though, in electing people to the latter position.
Dog taxes that are dependent on the size and breed of dog have the advantage of making people think twice about dogs that are big or hard to control. With regard to dog licences, we need funds to install bins for dog dirt, fence off kids' playgrounds and make parks safe for children. Judging by the letters that I get about park conditions, I am sure that angry voters send photographs of canine deposits on the grass to many MSPs, who of course realise the threat that such deposits pose to children running free. A small licence fee would not put great pressure on individual dog owners, but would provide local authorities with the means to fund cleanliness measures and the dog control measures that are specified in the bill.
Christine Grahame's bill parallels European measures. The 1991 act caters for all breeds of dog, including dogs that could benefit from the proposed new measures. Targeting deed, not breed, would be a considerable improvement on the existing legislation.
It is a fact that, in 2006-07, 623 offences were recorded under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991—the numbers have been steadily increasing since 1999. The 1991 act banned a number of breeds as particularly dangerous, and the intention was that they would die out altogether. However, there are still perhaps 10,000 pit bull terriers in Britain, though it is reassuring that there are not many Japanese tosas, which I have seen defined as a sort of canine sumo that weighs up to 17 stone—members will know one when they see one.
The Dangerous Dogs (Amendment) Act 1997 amended the 1991 act by allowing owners of four dangerous breeds to reapply for their dogs to be placed on the index of exempted dogs, subject to various conditions. However, that legislation placed great emphasis on the dog and less emphasis, as people have pointed out, on the owner. Christine Grahame's bill nails the owners of out-of-control dogs. Dog notices served on owners of such dogs will ensure that offending dogs are microchipped. As we have heard, authorised officers will be able to impose further conditions.
Vagueness about dog numbers potentially raises a financial issue, as Michael McMahon pointed out. A long-term decrease in dog attacks and incidents involving dogs will mean savings. In that context, the reintroduction of dog licences might be worth considering. The history of dog licences slept and slept: they were 7/6d when they were first imposed in Queen Victoria's day and remained at that price into the decimal age, until Thatcher abolished them in 1987. In Europe, dog licences do not seem to be a problem. Dogs must be registered, with tattooing and micro-chipping often required, in almost all European Union countries. Ireland collects an annual licence fee, and it costs about 150 euros a year in Germany to run an Alsatian. In Switzerland and Austria, mandatory registration and insurance are accompanied by a dog tax that is paid annually to local authorities. Incidentally, one should always remember the great definition of American democracy, which is that everyone is elected—from dog catchers to Presidents. They sometimes seem to make terrible mistakes, though, in electing people to the latter position.
Dog taxes that are dependent on the size and breed of dog have the advantage of making people think twice about dogs that are big or hard to control. With regard to dog licences, we need funds to install bins for dog dirt, fence off kids' playgrounds and make parks safe for children. Judging by the letters that I get about park conditions, I am sure that angry voters send photographs of canine deposits on the grass to many MSPs, who of course realise the threat that such deposits pose to children running free. A small licence fee would not put great pressure on individual dog owners, but would provide local authorities with the means to fund cleanliness measures and the dog control measures that are specified in the bill.
Christine Grahame's bill parallels European measures. The 1991 act caters for all breeds of dog, including dogs that could benefit from the proposed new measures. Targeting deed, not breed, would be a considerable improvement on the existing legislation.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-5581, in the name of Christine Grahame, on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill.
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
It is with great pleasure that I open the debate on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Local Government and Communities Committee for its scrut...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
In country areas, dogs often escape from gardens. If, for instance, a dog took a rabbit, a reasonable person might conclude that somebody would be apprehensi...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
The member has just illustrated why one would not try to pin down every circumstance. The facts and circumstances of every case determine what is reasonable....
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member must now wind up.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I have other points to make, Presiding Officer. I hope that I can address them in my summing up.I move,That the Parliament agrees to the general principles o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
I call Duncan McNeil to speak on behalf of the Local Government and Communities Committee.
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):
Lab
I apologise, Presiding Officer, for arriving late in the chamber. I am getting confused in my old age. I noted down three different times for the debate—2.45...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Does the member recognise that Dundee City Council agreed with the figures in the financial memorandum? Not all local authorities in Scotland took the same v...
Duncan McNeil:
Lab
The member is correct. However, councils operate at different levels; some have no dog wardens at this time. If the bill is passed, there will be an expectat...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
I thank Christine Grahame and the non-Executive bills unit for their work. Like other members, I commend Alex Neil on laying the foundations for the bill and...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):
Con
Historic.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Historic.
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD):
LD
It's no historic any more.
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
You can have it as "historic" if you want. Anyway, those discussions would have to take place. I can tell Mr McLetchie—Mr McNeil referred to this—that we are...
Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab):
Lab
I congratulate Christine Grahame on introducing the bill and on all her efforts since June last year, when she picked up the baton that was passed to her by ...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
With respect, does the member appreciate the distinction between civil and criminal law? There is no mandatory requirement for corroboration in a civil matter.
Michael McMahon:
Lab
That argument has been made, but the issue still requires scrutiny, because what frightens one person might not concern another. The "how long is a piece of ...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):
Con
I apologise for my late arrival in the chamber, particularly to Christine Grahame, and to Duncan McNeil, during whose speech I arrived. I was caught out by t...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I ask the member to desist from calling me a poodle.
David McLetchie:
Con
A poodle?
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Yes.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Can we get on with the bill, please?
David McLetchie:
Con
I had no intention of calling Ms Grahame a poodle. I commend Alex Neil for his work on the bill proposal and Christine Grahame for the characteristic vigour ...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
The Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill was introduced on 22 June 2009 by Christine Grahame MSP. The bill seeks to modernise the law on the control of dogs and h...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Mike Pringle:
LD
I do not have time. I am sorry.The consultation by Alex Neil MSP dealt with the definition of a dog "being dangerously out of control" and elicited a wide ra...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate Christine Grahame on her work on the bill. We do not know how many dogs there are in Scotland, but we guesstimate that there are between half ...
Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab):
Lab
I speak as a dog lover who has had the pleasure of owning several dogs over the course of my life. I also speak as someone who has twice received hospital tr...
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD):
LD
I have given my support to Ms Grahame to ensure that the bill is debated both in committee and in the chamber. I have done so because I am concerned that the...