Chamber
Plenary, 10 Feb 2010
10 Feb 2010 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I had no intention of calling Ms Grahame a poodle. I commend Alex Neil for his work on the bill proposal and Christine Grahame for the characteristic vigour with which she picked up the baton, as Mr McMahon put it—or indeed the stick, leash or muzzle.
The legislation in the field is in need of modernisation. On the basis of all the evidence, it is fair to conclude, as the Local Government and Communities Committee did, that the breed-based approach that was taken in the 1991 act has not worked. Particular breeds have been banned and might even have died out in this country, but there are still many cross-bred dogs that have been bred and trained to exhibit aggressive behaviour, which cause alarm to people and are a threat to public safety. For people who take a perverse delight in intimidating their neighbours, engaging in gang conflict or strutting their stuff in the hood, a powerful dog is a fashion accessory and a weapon. In many cases, as we know, the dog owners are a good deal more dangerous than the dogs. We need to change the law, as Christine Grahame has said. We need to focus on irresponsible dog owners and to extend the ambit of the law to cover the behaviour and control of dogs on private property.
The bill will create dog control notices and place dog wardens, who are employed by local authorities, at the forefront of policing irresponsible behaviour. I confess that I am sceptical about the modest costs of the new approach as claimed in the financial memorandum. My view is shared by the National Dog Warden Association, which provided evidence. However, that is not an argument against the measures in the bill, although the issue will bear further examination as the bill progresses through the Parliament.
Some of the evidence that the Local Government and Communities Committee heard focused on whether corroboration will be necessary in the serving of a dog control notice, given that the breach of such a notice might lead to a criminal prosecution, in which the notice's validity might be an issue. That has a bearing on the financial aspects, because it could require dog wardens to work in pairs to provide corroboration, thereby increasing the costs that are associated with the bill. However, on the basis of the further submission that Christine Grahame made to the committee and the discussion to date in light of the committee's stage 1 report, I am satisfied with the analysis that corroboration is not a legal necessity.
Having said that, because breach of a dog control notice will be a criminal offence, it will have to be corroborated by witnesses. We are all well aware that it can be difficult to persuade people in some communities to come forward in support of complaints and to act as witnesses to the breach of a notice in relation to other aspects of antisocial behaviour. Therefore, witnesses to the breach of a dog control notice may still have to come from the ranks of the professionals rather than the public if justice is to be done and our neighbourhoods are to be made safer.
The Conservatives support the bill's objectives. We hope that the mechanisms that it introduces and the changes in the law that it makes will fulfil those objectives, make our communities safer and advance the welfare of animals in Scotland. For that reason, the bill deserves a fair wind in the Parliament, and I look forward to its passage on to the statute book.
The legislation in the field is in need of modernisation. On the basis of all the evidence, it is fair to conclude, as the Local Government and Communities Committee did, that the breed-based approach that was taken in the 1991 act has not worked. Particular breeds have been banned and might even have died out in this country, but there are still many cross-bred dogs that have been bred and trained to exhibit aggressive behaviour, which cause alarm to people and are a threat to public safety. For people who take a perverse delight in intimidating their neighbours, engaging in gang conflict or strutting their stuff in the hood, a powerful dog is a fashion accessory and a weapon. In many cases, as we know, the dog owners are a good deal more dangerous than the dogs. We need to change the law, as Christine Grahame has said. We need to focus on irresponsible dog owners and to extend the ambit of the law to cover the behaviour and control of dogs on private property.
The bill will create dog control notices and place dog wardens, who are employed by local authorities, at the forefront of policing irresponsible behaviour. I confess that I am sceptical about the modest costs of the new approach as claimed in the financial memorandum. My view is shared by the National Dog Warden Association, which provided evidence. However, that is not an argument against the measures in the bill, although the issue will bear further examination as the bill progresses through the Parliament.
Some of the evidence that the Local Government and Communities Committee heard focused on whether corroboration will be necessary in the serving of a dog control notice, given that the breach of such a notice might lead to a criminal prosecution, in which the notice's validity might be an issue. That has a bearing on the financial aspects, because it could require dog wardens to work in pairs to provide corroboration, thereby increasing the costs that are associated with the bill. However, on the basis of the further submission that Christine Grahame made to the committee and the discussion to date in light of the committee's stage 1 report, I am satisfied with the analysis that corroboration is not a legal necessity.
Having said that, because breach of a dog control notice will be a criminal offence, it will have to be corroborated by witnesses. We are all well aware that it can be difficult to persuade people in some communities to come forward in support of complaints and to act as witnesses to the breach of a notice in relation to other aspects of antisocial behaviour. Therefore, witnesses to the breach of a dog control notice may still have to come from the ranks of the professionals rather than the public if justice is to be done and our neighbourhoods are to be made safer.
The Conservatives support the bill's objectives. We hope that the mechanisms that it introduces and the changes in the law that it makes will fulfil those objectives, make our communities safer and advance the welfare of animals in Scotland. For that reason, the bill deserves a fair wind in the Parliament, and I look forward to its passage on to the statute book.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-5581, in the name of Christine Grahame, on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill.
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
It is with great pleasure that I open the debate on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Local Government and Communities Committee for its scrut...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
In country areas, dogs often escape from gardens. If, for instance, a dog took a rabbit, a reasonable person might conclude that somebody would be apprehensi...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
The member has just illustrated why one would not try to pin down every circumstance. The facts and circumstances of every case determine what is reasonable....
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member must now wind up.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I have other points to make, Presiding Officer. I hope that I can address them in my summing up.I move,That the Parliament agrees to the general principles o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
I call Duncan McNeil to speak on behalf of the Local Government and Communities Committee.
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):
Lab
I apologise, Presiding Officer, for arriving late in the chamber. I am getting confused in my old age. I noted down three different times for the debate—2.45...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Does the member recognise that Dundee City Council agreed with the figures in the financial memorandum? Not all local authorities in Scotland took the same v...
Duncan McNeil:
Lab
The member is correct. However, councils operate at different levels; some have no dog wardens at this time. If the bill is passed, there will be an expectat...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
I thank Christine Grahame and the non-Executive bills unit for their work. Like other members, I commend Alex Neil on laying the foundations for the bill and...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):
Con
Historic.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Historic.
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD):
LD
It's no historic any more.
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
You can have it as "historic" if you want. Anyway, those discussions would have to take place. I can tell Mr McLetchie—Mr McNeil referred to this—that we are...
Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab):
Lab
I congratulate Christine Grahame on introducing the bill and on all her efforts since June last year, when she picked up the baton that was passed to her by ...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
With respect, does the member appreciate the distinction between civil and criminal law? There is no mandatory requirement for corroboration in a civil matter.
Michael McMahon:
Lab
That argument has been made, but the issue still requires scrutiny, because what frightens one person might not concern another. The "how long is a piece of ...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):
Con
I apologise for my late arrival in the chamber, particularly to Christine Grahame, and to Duncan McNeil, during whose speech I arrived. I was caught out by t...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I ask the member to desist from calling me a poodle.
David McLetchie:
Con
A poodle?
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Yes.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Can we get on with the bill, please?
David McLetchie:
Con
I had no intention of calling Ms Grahame a poodle. I commend Alex Neil for his work on the bill proposal and Christine Grahame for the characteristic vigour ...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
The Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill was introduced on 22 June 2009 by Christine Grahame MSP. The bill seeks to modernise the law on the control of dogs and h...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Mike Pringle:
LD
I do not have time. I am sorry.The consultation by Alex Neil MSP dealt with the definition of a dog "being dangerously out of control" and elicited a wide ra...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate Christine Grahame on her work on the bill. We do not know how many dogs there are in Scotland, but we guesstimate that there are between half ...
Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab):
Lab
I speak as a dog lover who has had the pleasure of owning several dogs over the course of my life. I also speak as someone who has twice received hospital tr...
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD):
LD
I have given my support to Ms Grahame to ensure that the bill is debated both in committee and in the chamber. I have done so because I am concerned that the...