Chamber
Plenary, 10 Feb 2010
10 Feb 2010 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I congratulate Christine Grahame on introducing the bill and on all her efforts since June last year, when she picked up the baton that was passed to her by Alex Neil, who pursued the issue originally. I thank the members of the Local Government and Communities Committee and their clerking team for their work in scrutinising the bill since being designated the lead committee. I also thank NEBU for its efforts to ensure that the bill could be discussed today. I pay tribute to those who gave evidence on the bill and highlighted a variety of pertinent issues, some of which remain outstanding this afternoon and have already been outlined.
Whatever issues remain outstanding, the starting point of the bill is right. The Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 was much criticised at the time, as it was viewed as a knee-jerk reaction to a distressing problem. The spate of horrific dog attacks that preceded that legislation were not acceptable, and the issue required to be addressed. However, the haste with which that legislation was passed prevented effective analysis of the causes of the problem and a proper determination of the necessary measures to address it. Christine Grahame is therefore accurate in her assessment that the current legislation on dogs is piecemeal, and has tended to focus on breeds of dogs and dangerous dogs rather than on why dogs become out of control and on what has to be done to tackle the dog owner who fails to control their pet.
Shining the spotlight on the act that takes place instead of on the type of dog involved is eminently more sensible, and it is hardly surprising that the Kennel Club and the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals support the bill as a result. Nevertheless, Labour members are concerned about aspects of the bill.
The bill primarily aims to create an administrative regime that seeks to influence the behaviour of dog owners and to promote responsible ownership, but the measures that are outlined to achieve that will require a sizeable injection of cash into local authorities, especially to provide for the administration of dog control notices. Christine Grahame has argued that the officers who would be involved are already employed by local authorities, which must deal with dogs, and that the new duties in the bill would be subsumed into existing duties. However, although the Scottish National Party Government has tried its best to deny the consequences of its budget, the reality is that local authorities are cutting staff by the thousand and that cuts are falling in areas such as community safety and are affecting community wardens and other people who deal with responsibilities in relation to dog fouling and dog-related antisocial behaviour.
The evidence that was presented during the consultation is a year old, but even a year ago local authorities were advising the Parliament that they would need to recruit additional staff to implement the proposed DCN regime. If the regime would have been a problem for councils in 2008-09, it would be a bigger burden on councils this year, given the fiscal constraints that they face and will face in the future.
Issues that have been raised about corroboration are of equal concern. The validity of corroboration is a complex issue, which requires much more scrutiny. The definition of "out of control" is an issue, because judging what it means is subjective. The formulation of a test that applies across a range of situations is a major concern.
Whatever issues remain outstanding, the starting point of the bill is right. The Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 was much criticised at the time, as it was viewed as a knee-jerk reaction to a distressing problem. The spate of horrific dog attacks that preceded that legislation were not acceptable, and the issue required to be addressed. However, the haste with which that legislation was passed prevented effective analysis of the causes of the problem and a proper determination of the necessary measures to address it. Christine Grahame is therefore accurate in her assessment that the current legislation on dogs is piecemeal, and has tended to focus on breeds of dogs and dangerous dogs rather than on why dogs become out of control and on what has to be done to tackle the dog owner who fails to control their pet.
Shining the spotlight on the act that takes place instead of on the type of dog involved is eminently more sensible, and it is hardly surprising that the Kennel Club and the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals support the bill as a result. Nevertheless, Labour members are concerned about aspects of the bill.
The bill primarily aims to create an administrative regime that seeks to influence the behaviour of dog owners and to promote responsible ownership, but the measures that are outlined to achieve that will require a sizeable injection of cash into local authorities, especially to provide for the administration of dog control notices. Christine Grahame has argued that the officers who would be involved are already employed by local authorities, which must deal with dogs, and that the new duties in the bill would be subsumed into existing duties. However, although the Scottish National Party Government has tried its best to deny the consequences of its budget, the reality is that local authorities are cutting staff by the thousand and that cuts are falling in areas such as community safety and are affecting community wardens and other people who deal with responsibilities in relation to dog fouling and dog-related antisocial behaviour.
The evidence that was presented during the consultation is a year old, but even a year ago local authorities were advising the Parliament that they would need to recruit additional staff to implement the proposed DCN regime. If the regime would have been a problem for councils in 2008-09, it would be a bigger burden on councils this year, given the fiscal constraints that they face and will face in the future.
Issues that have been raised about corroboration are of equal concern. The validity of corroboration is a complex issue, which requires much more scrutiny. The definition of "out of control" is an issue, because judging what it means is subjective. The formulation of a test that applies across a range of situations is a major concern.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-5581, in the name of Christine Grahame, on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill.
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
It is with great pleasure that I open the debate on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Local Government and Communities Committee for its scrut...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
In country areas, dogs often escape from gardens. If, for instance, a dog took a rabbit, a reasonable person might conclude that somebody would be apprehensi...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
The member has just illustrated why one would not try to pin down every circumstance. The facts and circumstances of every case determine what is reasonable....
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member must now wind up.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I have other points to make, Presiding Officer. I hope that I can address them in my summing up.I move,That the Parliament agrees to the general principles o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
I call Duncan McNeil to speak on behalf of the Local Government and Communities Committee.
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):
Lab
I apologise, Presiding Officer, for arriving late in the chamber. I am getting confused in my old age. I noted down three different times for the debate—2.45...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Does the member recognise that Dundee City Council agreed with the figures in the financial memorandum? Not all local authorities in Scotland took the same v...
Duncan McNeil:
Lab
The member is correct. However, councils operate at different levels; some have no dog wardens at this time. If the bill is passed, there will be an expectat...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
I thank Christine Grahame and the non-Executive bills unit for their work. Like other members, I commend Alex Neil on laying the foundations for the bill and...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):
Con
Historic.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Historic.
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD):
LD
It's no historic any more.
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
You can have it as "historic" if you want. Anyway, those discussions would have to take place. I can tell Mr McLetchie—Mr McNeil referred to this—that we are...
Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab):
Lab
I congratulate Christine Grahame on introducing the bill and on all her efforts since June last year, when she picked up the baton that was passed to her by ...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
With respect, does the member appreciate the distinction between civil and criminal law? There is no mandatory requirement for corroboration in a civil matter.
Michael McMahon:
Lab
That argument has been made, but the issue still requires scrutiny, because what frightens one person might not concern another. The "how long is a piece of ...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):
Con
I apologise for my late arrival in the chamber, particularly to Christine Grahame, and to Duncan McNeil, during whose speech I arrived. I was caught out by t...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I ask the member to desist from calling me a poodle.
David McLetchie:
Con
A poodle?
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Yes.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Can we get on with the bill, please?
David McLetchie:
Con
I had no intention of calling Ms Grahame a poodle. I commend Alex Neil for his work on the bill proposal and Christine Grahame for the characteristic vigour ...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
The Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill was introduced on 22 June 2009 by Christine Grahame MSP. The bill seeks to modernise the law on the control of dogs and h...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Mike Pringle:
LD
I do not have time. I am sorry.The consultation by Alex Neil MSP dealt with the definition of a dog "being dangerously out of control" and elicited a wide ra...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate Christine Grahame on her work on the bill. We do not know how many dogs there are in Scotland, but we guesstimate that there are between half ...
Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab):
Lab
I speak as a dog lover who has had the pleasure of owning several dogs over the course of my life. I also speak as someone who has twice received hospital tr...
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD):
LD
I have given my support to Ms Grahame to ensure that the bill is debated both in committee and in the chamber. I have done so because I am concerned that the...