Chamber
Plenary, 10 Feb 2010
10 Feb 2010 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I thank Christine Grahame and the non-Executive bills unit for their work. Like other members, I commend Alex Neil on laying the foundations for the bill and thank the members and clerks who were involved in preparing the stage 1 report.
The Scottish Government welcomes the policy objective of the bill, which is to make our communities safer by enabling effective preventive action to be taken against dogs that are out of control. The creation of a dog control notice regime will encourage dog owners to take responsibility for the actions of their dogs. Under the bill, authorised officers will be able to issue a dog owner with a dog control notice if their dog is found to be out of control. Such notices will be civil notices, but it will be possible to prosecute dog owners if they breach the terms of a notice.
Before a dog control notice can be issued, the dog in question must be deemed to be out of control. We are aware that some concern has been expressed about the definition of "out of control" in section 1. The out of control test is a two-part test, both parts of which must be met. In our view, the two-part test is satisfactory. However, we note that the stage 1 report suggests that the bill is "too imprecise" on exactly what constitutes
"reasonable…alarm, or apprehensiveness"
in the test. In their evidence, some people complained about the inclusion in the test of a reference to a dog's "size and power". It will be interesting to hear views on that during the debate.
There has been some discussion regarding the costs of the new dog control notice regime. The main responsibilities under the proposed regime will fall on local authorities, as Duncan McNeil mentioned. In their stage 1 evidence, some local authorities indicated that existing dog wardens would take on the role of authorised officer without any new costs being incurred. Others disagreed, suggesting that higher costs would result from employing and training new staff. Our position is that the new dog control notice regime is designed to be a preventive regime. We do not expect thousands and thousands of dog control notices to be issued every week.
We hope that local authorities will be able to act as Dundee City Council has done. In its evidence on the proposed new regime, it said:
"the costs can be absorbed."—[Official Report, Local Government and Communities Committee, 18 November 2009; c 2667.]
Should the new responsibilities, once implemented, give rise to a request from local government for extra central Government resources, discussions would have to take place in accordance with the concordat with COSLA and local authorities.
The Scottish Government welcomes the policy objective of the bill, which is to make our communities safer by enabling effective preventive action to be taken against dogs that are out of control. The creation of a dog control notice regime will encourage dog owners to take responsibility for the actions of their dogs. Under the bill, authorised officers will be able to issue a dog owner with a dog control notice if their dog is found to be out of control. Such notices will be civil notices, but it will be possible to prosecute dog owners if they breach the terms of a notice.
Before a dog control notice can be issued, the dog in question must be deemed to be out of control. We are aware that some concern has been expressed about the definition of "out of control" in section 1. The out of control test is a two-part test, both parts of which must be met. In our view, the two-part test is satisfactory. However, we note that the stage 1 report suggests that the bill is "too imprecise" on exactly what constitutes
"reasonable…alarm, or apprehensiveness"
in the test. In their evidence, some people complained about the inclusion in the test of a reference to a dog's "size and power". It will be interesting to hear views on that during the debate.
There has been some discussion regarding the costs of the new dog control notice regime. The main responsibilities under the proposed regime will fall on local authorities, as Duncan McNeil mentioned. In their stage 1 evidence, some local authorities indicated that existing dog wardens would take on the role of authorised officer without any new costs being incurred. Others disagreed, suggesting that higher costs would result from employing and training new staff. Our position is that the new dog control notice regime is designed to be a preventive regime. We do not expect thousands and thousands of dog control notices to be issued every week.
We hope that local authorities will be able to act as Dundee City Council has done. In its evidence on the proposed new regime, it said:
"the costs can be absorbed."—[Official Report, Local Government and Communities Committee, 18 November 2009; c 2667.]
Should the new responsibilities, once implemented, give rise to a request from local government for extra central Government resources, discussions would have to take place in accordance with the concordat with COSLA and local authorities.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-5581, in the name of Christine Grahame, on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill.
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
It is with great pleasure that I open the debate on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Local Government and Communities Committee for its scrut...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
In country areas, dogs often escape from gardens. If, for instance, a dog took a rabbit, a reasonable person might conclude that somebody would be apprehensi...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
The member has just illustrated why one would not try to pin down every circumstance. The facts and circumstances of every case determine what is reasonable....
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member must now wind up.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I have other points to make, Presiding Officer. I hope that I can address them in my summing up.I move,That the Parliament agrees to the general principles o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
I call Duncan McNeil to speak on behalf of the Local Government and Communities Committee.
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):
Lab
I apologise, Presiding Officer, for arriving late in the chamber. I am getting confused in my old age. I noted down three different times for the debate—2.45...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Does the member recognise that Dundee City Council agreed with the figures in the financial memorandum? Not all local authorities in Scotland took the same v...
Duncan McNeil:
Lab
The member is correct. However, councils operate at different levels; some have no dog wardens at this time. If the bill is passed, there will be an expectat...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
I thank Christine Grahame and the non-Executive bills unit for their work. Like other members, I commend Alex Neil on laying the foundations for the bill and...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):
Con
Historic.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Historic.
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD):
LD
It's no historic any more.
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
You can have it as "historic" if you want. Anyway, those discussions would have to take place. I can tell Mr McLetchie—Mr McNeil referred to this—that we are...
Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab):
Lab
I congratulate Christine Grahame on introducing the bill and on all her efforts since June last year, when she picked up the baton that was passed to her by ...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
With respect, does the member appreciate the distinction between civil and criminal law? There is no mandatory requirement for corroboration in a civil matter.
Michael McMahon:
Lab
That argument has been made, but the issue still requires scrutiny, because what frightens one person might not concern another. The "how long is a piece of ...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):
Con
I apologise for my late arrival in the chamber, particularly to Christine Grahame, and to Duncan McNeil, during whose speech I arrived. I was caught out by t...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I ask the member to desist from calling me a poodle.
David McLetchie:
Con
A poodle?
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Yes.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Can we get on with the bill, please?
David McLetchie:
Con
I had no intention of calling Ms Grahame a poodle. I commend Alex Neil for his work on the bill proposal and Christine Grahame for the characteristic vigour ...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
The Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill was introduced on 22 June 2009 by Christine Grahame MSP. The bill seeks to modernise the law on the control of dogs and h...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Mike Pringle:
LD
I do not have time. I am sorry.The consultation by Alex Neil MSP dealt with the definition of a dog "being dangerously out of control" and elicited a wide ra...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate Christine Grahame on her work on the bill. We do not know how many dogs there are in Scotland, but we guesstimate that there are between half ...
Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab):
Lab
I speak as a dog lover who has had the pleasure of owning several dogs over the course of my life. I also speak as someone who has twice received hospital tr...
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD):
LD
I have given my support to Ms Grahame to ensure that the bill is debated both in committee and in the chamber. I have done so because I am concerned that the...