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Chamber

Plenary, 10 Feb 2010

10 Feb 2010 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
It is with great pleasure that I open the debate on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Local Government and Communities Committee for its scrutiny of the bill and for making me feel briefly like a minister under interrogation. I also thank all those who have worked so hard on the bill, including the self-effacing non-Executive bills unit staff who are present in the chamber today, and my colleague Alex Neil and his staff for all the work that they put into developing the policy before Alex Neil was elevated to the lofty heights of ministerial office and became a willing victim of promotion.

Members who know Alex Neil will know that he does not get on well with dogs, but I am a dog lover. However, owning a dog is not a right but a privilege. Every dog owner, regardless of their personal circumstances, has a duty to ensure the welfare of their animal and to ensure that their dog is kept under control at all times, in the interests of public safety. If they cannot do that, their behaviour should be challenged, to be frank.

The bill is not intended to penalise responsible dog owners. It should improve their experience by addressing irresponsible dog ownership and reducing the threat that out-of-control dogs pose. Sadly, while most dog owners are responsible, there is a growing problem with dog owners who do not look after their dogs properly, whether through a lack of knowledge that means that they do not provide appropriate training or socialisation, for example, or by deliberate action, such as the use of status dogs that are taught to act aggressively.

We need only pick up the papers and read about recent dog attacks to know that the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 has failed to improve public safety. That legislation was passed in haste and has been repented at leisure. In Scotland, about 600 attacks are reported each year, which is more than double the figure 10 years ago.

By focusing on deed, not breed, my bill will reduce the number of attacks in two ways. The dog control notice regime will give authorities the power to require dog owners to keep their dogs under control or face a criminal conviction. If used properly, that power will reduce the number of lower-level incidents—I stress that phrase—in which dog owners perhaps need guidance on how to keep their dog under control. It will also prevent many dogs from developing more dangerous behaviour that might lead to dog attacks.

The bill requires owners to ensure that their dogs are kept under control at all times and in all places—I emphasise that. Currently, if a child is attacked in a dog's home, where it is permitted to be, the owner cannot be held legally responsible unless the dog is of a banned breed. That is clearly wrong. My bill extends to all places existing offences that relate to dogs that are dangerously out of control.

I thank the Local Government and Communities Committee for supporting the bill's general principles. I will tackle the main issues that the committee raised, which were corroboration, the definition of "out of control" and implementation costs.

On corroboration, I agree with the committee that the bill does not require authorised officers to work in pairs to serve dog control notices. I understand that the committee's concern is that the validity of a notice

"may be used as a defence in a criminal prosecution."

My clear view is that the offence of failure to comply with a notice, as provided for at section 5, is a separate matter that relates to a separate and subsequent incident. Corroboration is therefore required only for the incident that is the breach. As I explained to the committee, that is because we will move from a civil matter to a criminal matter—a breach—that requires corroboration. If members would like the rather lengthy technical answer, I can return to the issue in my closing speech.

The definition of "out of control" gave rise to concern. The bill provides a two-part test to assist authorised officers in assessing whether a dog is out of control. The first part is that the dog

"is not being kept under control effectively and consistently"

and the second part is that the dog is causing

"reasonable … alarm, or … apprehensiveness".

The two parts must be taken together and provide the basis on which an authorised officer can determine whether a dog is out of control—the word "and" is crucial.

Formulating an appropriate test is not easy. Providing a definitive list of behaviours or actions to cover out-of-control behaviour is neither practical nor beneficial. Each case must be assessed on individual circumstances.

The committee heard concerns that "reasonable ... alarm, or ... apprehensiveness" is too imprecise and might lead to inconsistency in notices. Many acts use a reasonableness test, which is a widely recognised proposition. It applies to MSPs when we consider what interests to register. The test for registration is whether a fair minded and impartial observer would reasonably consider that an overseas visit, for example, would prejudice the member's behaviour. Historically, that was known as the test of what the man on the Clapham omnibus would think.

Under the bill, when considering whether a dog is out of control, authorised officers will have to act objectively and ask themselves whether a fair-minded and impartial observer would conclude that the dog was causing alarm or apprehensiveness.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan): SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-5581, in the name of Christine Grahame, on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill.
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
It is with great pleasure that I open the debate on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Local Government and Communities Committee for its scrut...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): LD
In country areas, dogs often escape from gardens. If, for instance, a dog took a rabbit, a reasonable person might conclude that somebody would be apprehensi...
Christine Grahame: SNP
The member has just illustrated why one would not try to pin down every circumstance. The facts and circumstances of every case determine what is reasonable....
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
The member must now wind up.
Christine Grahame: SNP
I have other points to make, Presiding Officer. I hope that I can address them in my summing up.I move,That the Parliament agrees to the general principles o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
I call Duncan McNeil to speak on behalf of the Local Government and Communities Committee.
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): Lab
I apologise, Presiding Officer, for arriving late in the chamber. I am getting confused in my old age. I noted down three different times for the debate—2.45...
Christine Grahame: SNP
Does the member recognise that Dundee City Council agreed with the figures in the financial memorandum? Not all local authorities in Scotland took the same v...
Duncan McNeil: Lab
The member is correct. However, councils operate at different levels; some have no dog wardens at this time. If the bill is passed, there will be an expectat...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill): SNP
I thank Christine Grahame and the non-Executive bills unit for their work. Like other members, I commend Alex Neil on laying the foundations for the bill and...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con): Con
Historic.
Mike Rumbles: LD
Historic.
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD): LD
It's no historic any more.
Kenny MacAskill: SNP
You can have it as "historic" if you want. Anyway, those discussions would have to take place. I can tell Mr McLetchie—Mr McNeil referred to this—that we are...
Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab): Lab
I congratulate Christine Grahame on introducing the bill and on all her efforts since June last year, when she picked up the baton that was passed to her by ...
Christine Grahame: SNP
With respect, does the member appreciate the distinction between civil and criminal law? There is no mandatory requirement for corroboration in a civil matter.
Michael McMahon: Lab
That argument has been made, but the issue still requires scrutiny, because what frightens one person might not concern another. The "how long is a piece of ...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con): Con
I apologise for my late arrival in the chamber, particularly to Christine Grahame, and to Duncan McNeil, during whose speech I arrived. I was caught out by t...
Christine Grahame: SNP
I ask the member to desist from calling me a poodle.
David McLetchie: Con
A poodle?
Christine Grahame: SNP
Yes.
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
Can we get on with the bill, please?
David McLetchie: Con
I had no intention of calling Ms Grahame a poodle. I commend Alex Neil for his work on the bill proposal and Christine Grahame for the characteristic vigour ...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD): LD
The Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill was introduced on 22 June 2009 by Christine Grahame MSP. The bill seeks to modernise the law on the control of dogs and h...
Christine Grahame: SNP
Will the member give way?
Mike Pringle: LD
I do not have time. I am sorry.The consultation by Alex Neil MSP dealt with the definition of a dog "being dangerously out of control" and elicited a wide ra...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): SNP
I congratulate Christine Grahame on her work on the bill. We do not know how many dogs there are in Scotland, but we guesstimate that there are between half ...
Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): Lab
I speak as a dog lover who has had the pleasure of owning several dogs over the course of my life. I also speak as someone who has twice received hospital tr...
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD): LD
I have given my support to Ms Grahame to ensure that the bill is debated both in committee and in the chamber. I have done so because I am concerned that the...