Chamber
Plenary, 18 Jun 2008
18 Jun 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Ministerial Code
It was too much to expect that the Scottish National Party would uphold its previous calls for a bill on ministerial accountability but, in that context, I welcome the fact that the ministerial code has finally arrived. I also welcome the progress that has been made in certain areas and, in particular, the role for your distinguished predecessors, Presiding Officer.
However, the devil is in the detail. The issue is not who the advisers are but how they come to investigate a matter. Although the credentials of the former Presiding Officers are beyond reproach, it seems that the only way in which they can advise on a matter is if the First Minister, and the First Minister alone, chooses to call on their services. Can the First Minister explain why he has stopped short of giving this Parliament the power to refer matters of concern about ministerial conduct to the independent advisers?
Secondly, I raise—with all delicacy—the issue of the conduct of the most important minister of all: the First Minister. The statement appears to leave unanswered the question of what happens when a complaint pertains to the First Minister himself. Such a situation is not entirely unknown. Does he intend, under the new code, to remain his own judge and jury, or does the code allow for a situation in which he could refer himself for investigation by the independent advisers?
Thirdly, I am aware that there are different approaches in different places. However, in this place a little over a year ago, the First Minister came to power suggesting that we should have a new politics and promising that he would persuade Parliament of the wisdom of his choices. Given those commitments, I invite him to reflect on the following. It is important that his plans command the confidence of the whole Parliament. If we are to have full confidence in the plans, is he willing to allow Parliament to consider them; to talk to the independent panel about its future role; to debate the matter; and perhaps to come back in the autumn when there has been an opportunity for Parliament to comment, or does he intend the statement to be his final word on the matter?
However, the devil is in the detail. The issue is not who the advisers are but how they come to investigate a matter. Although the credentials of the former Presiding Officers are beyond reproach, it seems that the only way in which they can advise on a matter is if the First Minister, and the First Minister alone, chooses to call on their services. Can the First Minister explain why he has stopped short of giving this Parliament the power to refer matters of concern about ministerial conduct to the independent advisers?
Secondly, I raise—with all delicacy—the issue of the conduct of the most important minister of all: the First Minister. The statement appears to leave unanswered the question of what happens when a complaint pertains to the First Minister himself. Such a situation is not entirely unknown. Does he intend, under the new code, to remain his own judge and jury, or does the code allow for a situation in which he could refer himself for investigation by the independent advisers?
Thirdly, I am aware that there are different approaches in different places. However, in this place a little over a year ago, the First Minister came to power suggesting that we should have a new politics and promising that he would persuade Parliament of the wisdom of his choices. Given those commitments, I invite him to reflect on the following. It is important that his plans command the confidence of the whole Parliament. If we are to have full confidence in the plans, is he willing to allow Parliament to consider them; to talk to the independent panel about its future role; to debate the matter; and perhaps to come back in the autumn when there has been an opportunity for Parliament to comment, or does he intend the statement to be his final word on the matter?
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a statement by Alex Salmond on the ministerial code. The First Minister will take questions at the end of his 15-minute statemen...
The First Minister (Alex Salmond):
SNP
I am delighted to be able to inform Parliament of the new and, I believe, stronger ministerial code that comes into force from today. Colleagues in the chamb...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
The First Minister will now take questions on the issues raised in his statement. We have a little over 30 minutes for questions.
Ms Wendy Alexander (Paisley North) (Lab):
Lab
It was too much to expect that the Scottish National Party would uphold its previous calls for a bill on ministerial accountability but, in that context, I w...
The First Minister:
SNP
I welcome Wendy Alexander's welcome for the new ministerial code. I observe that in eight years of Labour-Liberal governance, she did not think of making any...
Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I have to say that, to me, the statement is not so much "Blah" as "Eh?" I note the First Minister's intention to appoint a panel of former Presiding Officers...
The First Minister:
SNP
I am interested in a party leader who proclaims her wish to avoid more bureaucratic institutions in Scotland but who, in effect, calls for a ministerial tsar...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
I remind the First Minister that I have consistently raised the issue of independent oversight of the ministerial code with him and his predecessors since th...
Tricia Marwick (Central Fife) (SNP):
SNP
Question.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Everyone—apart from the SNP, apparently—recognises that the situation cannot be allowed to continue. As with complaints against MSPs, all complaints must be ...
Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Is there a question?
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Then and only then should the results of any independent investigation be published and reported back to the First Minister for his decision.
Members:
Question.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Presiding Officer, it is up to the First Minister to take action on that. Could I ask him—
Members:
Hooray!
Mike Rumbles:
LD
That is interesting, because I am sure that the First Minister will not answer the question properly.Does the First Minister recognise that the will of the P...
The First Minister:
SNP
I have no doubt that, from the back benches, Mr Rumbles constantly stimulated his front-bench colleagues to adopt a measure of independence in relation to th...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
We come to questions from back-bench members. An enormous number of members would like to ask questions and I would like to call as many as possible. I there...
Brian Adam (Aberdeen North) (SNP):
SNP
Does the First Minister see any scope for a further layer of bureaucracy to deal with these matters? Indeed, who would make any such independent tsar account...
The First Minister:
SNP
That is exactly the line of accountability that any First Minister and any ministerial team would have.I say to Labour members that the issue is not so much ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
I am delighted that the First Minister listens to everything that I say. Let me capture his attention a little longer and enlighten him: when ministers breac...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
Question, please.
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
Section 1.4 of the new ministerial code states that an investigation will be carried out when the First Minister deems it appropriate. What circumstances are...
The First Minister:
SNP
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on finding a contorted explanation for why her three parliamentary questions no longer represent the attitude to which she subs...
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):
Lab
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. As convener of the Local Government and Communities Committee, I make it clear that our inquiry's remit did not cover...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
That was not a point of order, but the point has been made.
The First Minister:
SNP
That was not a point of order, or even accurate. I said that the committee investigated not the ministerial code but the Trump issue. If the committee's conv...
Tricia Marwick:
SNP
I welcome the First Minister's commitment to strengthening and improving the ministerial code. Does he recall that, in 1999, Donald Dewar—the then First Mini...
The First Minister:
SNP
Like any self-respecting Parliament, the Parliament is well able to undertake its responsibilities. I am unfamiliar with the comments to which Tricia Marwick...
Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab):
Lab
The First Minister may think that his ministers have answered 7,000 questions in six months, but I ask him to answer at least one question this afternoon. I ...