Chamber
Plenary, 23 Apr 2008
23 Apr 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Historic Scotland and Local Authorities
I am pleased to speak in the debate, which has been very informative. In 2004, during a similar debate, I made a speech that was partially critical of Historic Scotland and its role. Things have improved; there has, as Ted Brocklebank said, been a change of cultural outlook. Earlier this week, like other members, I found it encouraging to read that 2007-08 was a record year for Historic Scotland, with overall visitor numbers increasing by 62,000 compared with the previous year. That included some strong performances in my own region, the Highlands and Islands, including Skara Brae, which has been mentioned; Kisimul castle in the Western Isles; the iconic Urquhart castle on Loch Ness; and Rothesay castle on Bute, which had an amazing increase in visitors of 49 per cent. Well done them!
Given the pressures on the international economy these days, those figures are very positive and a tribute to those who work for Historic Scotland throughout the country. I hope that we can look forward to Dumfries house being another success story in next year's figures. Having been closely involved in last year's campaign to save Dumfries house, I commend Historic Scotland for its involvement in saving what I hope will turn out to be one of the jewels in Scotland's tourism crown. It was a good example of Historic Scotland working closely and effectively with local authorities in the Ayrshire area, as well as with other organisations, for the common good.
We have heard a number of examples of instances in which it has been suggested that Historic Scotland could engage more positively and productively with the owners of particular historic buildings in various states of repair, and more widely with local communities. I associate myself with my colleague Ted Brocklebank's comments, especially concerning Castle Tioram, which featured in my 2004 speech. I will repeat what I said then:
"Can the minister explain why it is wrong for an individual to spend £4.5 million of his own money on the restoration of a 13th century castle to its 1715 condition? Is it wrong that he should want to live there? Is it wrong that he should wish to create a museum for the public? Is it wrong that he should create spin-off benefits and employment for the local community and for local hotels and bed and breakfasts?
Historic Scotland seems to think that that is wrong, despite 70 per cent of the local population around Acharacle signing a petition in support of the renovation and Highland Council giving the go-ahead to the plan, which seems democratic enough to me. The renovator is not asking for money; he seeks permission to spend his own money on the restoration of a piece of Scotland's heritage that without renovation will crumble into the sea. Will the minister look at the case and at the prejudice that is blocking a good idea from becoming a reality for the people of Moidart?"—[Official Report, 11 March 2004; c 6619.]
I asked that question of the then Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport. Today, I ask the Minister for Europe, External Affairs and Culture the same question.
I congratulate John Farquhar Munro on raising the case of Eilean Donan; we should also consider Kinkell castle, which was built in 1592 and was completely sacked after the '45. It was lovingly restored by Gerald Laing, who is one of our foremost sculptors. That is another example of a building that has been renovated to the benefit of Scotland's heritage.
In a number of cases, Historic Scotland and local authorities can work more effectively with the owners of historic properties and local communities. For example, our amendment seeks a clearer approach to dispute resolution. Last week, however, I had the pleasure of hosting the Dalmally historical association's historic visit to the Scottish Parliament, and I heard about a generally positive case of engagement with Historic Scotland.
The Dalmally project involved the restoration of the historic local parish church. The original project was to restore the church windows, which dated from 1811, at a total cost of £26,000. At the time, the church did not have the money to fund the project. The cost ballooned to £250,000 when it was discovered that the internal structures of the church tower needed to be replaced. The original tower had been rendered in porous limestone, but at a later date the render had been covered in non-porous plaster, which caused the structure to become waterlogged, damp and dangerous.
The committee that was set up, which involved members of the church, provided the framework and organisation that were needed to manage the project. In all, 14 bodies have been involved in supporting the project. Some £40,000 was raised by the church and the rest of the money came from the other bodies that were involved. Historic Scotland doubled the funding when the project went over budget. I congratulate Historic Scotland on a wonderful piece of work.
I agree strongly with the statements in "Scotland's Historic Environment" that
"protection of the historic environment is not about preventing change"
and that, rather,
"change in this dynamic environment should be managed intelligently and with understanding, to achieve the best outcome for the historic environment and for the people of Scotland."
The Scottish Conservatives support any moves that will streamline the relationship between local authorities, Historic Scotland and stakeholders. We look forward to hearing the Scottish Government's proposals in that regard. As has been recognised, Historic Scotland can be a powerful enabler for voluntary heritage organisations, network bodies and local authorities. It can allow them to deliver successful, locally based, locally supported outcomes for the historic environment.
I support the amendment in my colleague Ted Brocklebank's name.
Given the pressures on the international economy these days, those figures are very positive and a tribute to those who work for Historic Scotland throughout the country. I hope that we can look forward to Dumfries house being another success story in next year's figures. Having been closely involved in last year's campaign to save Dumfries house, I commend Historic Scotland for its involvement in saving what I hope will turn out to be one of the jewels in Scotland's tourism crown. It was a good example of Historic Scotland working closely and effectively with local authorities in the Ayrshire area, as well as with other organisations, for the common good.
We have heard a number of examples of instances in which it has been suggested that Historic Scotland could engage more positively and productively with the owners of particular historic buildings in various states of repair, and more widely with local communities. I associate myself with my colleague Ted Brocklebank's comments, especially concerning Castle Tioram, which featured in my 2004 speech. I will repeat what I said then:
"Can the minister explain why it is wrong for an individual to spend £4.5 million of his own money on the restoration of a 13th century castle to its 1715 condition? Is it wrong that he should want to live there? Is it wrong that he should wish to create a museum for the public? Is it wrong that he should create spin-off benefits and employment for the local community and for local hotels and bed and breakfasts?
Historic Scotland seems to think that that is wrong, despite 70 per cent of the local population around Acharacle signing a petition in support of the renovation and Highland Council giving the go-ahead to the plan, which seems democratic enough to me. The renovator is not asking for money; he seeks permission to spend his own money on the restoration of a piece of Scotland's heritage that without renovation will crumble into the sea. Will the minister look at the case and at the prejudice that is blocking a good idea from becoming a reality for the people of Moidart?"—[Official Report, 11 March 2004; c 6619.]
I asked that question of the then Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport. Today, I ask the Minister for Europe, External Affairs and Culture the same question.
I congratulate John Farquhar Munro on raising the case of Eilean Donan; we should also consider Kinkell castle, which was built in 1592 and was completely sacked after the '45. It was lovingly restored by Gerald Laing, who is one of our foremost sculptors. That is another example of a building that has been renovated to the benefit of Scotland's heritage.
In a number of cases, Historic Scotland and local authorities can work more effectively with the owners of historic properties and local communities. For example, our amendment seeks a clearer approach to dispute resolution. Last week, however, I had the pleasure of hosting the Dalmally historical association's historic visit to the Scottish Parliament, and I heard about a generally positive case of engagement with Historic Scotland.
The Dalmally project involved the restoration of the historic local parish church. The original project was to restore the church windows, which dated from 1811, at a total cost of £26,000. At the time, the church did not have the money to fund the project. The cost ballooned to £250,000 when it was discovered that the internal structures of the church tower needed to be replaced. The original tower had been rendered in porous limestone, but at a later date the render had been covered in non-porous plaster, which caused the structure to become waterlogged, damp and dangerous.
The committee that was set up, which involved members of the church, provided the framework and organisation that were needed to manage the project. In all, 14 bodies have been involved in supporting the project. Some £40,000 was raised by the church and the rest of the money came from the other bodies that were involved. Historic Scotland doubled the funding when the project went over budget. I congratulate Historic Scotland on a wonderful piece of work.
I agree strongly with the statements in "Scotland's Historic Environment" that
"protection of the historic environment is not about preventing change"
and that, rather,
"change in this dynamic environment should be managed intelligently and with understanding, to achieve the best outcome for the historic environment and for the people of Scotland."
The Scottish Conservatives support any moves that will streamline the relationship between local authorities, Historic Scotland and stakeholders. We look forward to hearing the Scottish Government's proposals in that regard. As has been recognised, Historic Scotland can be a powerful enabler for voluntary heritage organisations, network bodies and local authorities. It can allow them to deliver successful, locally based, locally supported outcomes for the historic environment.
I support the amendment in my colleague Ted Brocklebank's name.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on S3M-1751, in the name of Linda Fabiani, on Historic Scotland and local authorities.
The Minister for Europe, External Affairs and Culture (Linda Fabiani):
SNP
I am pleased to open the debate, which allows me to highlight the many ways in which central and local government are working together to deliver a sustainab...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the announcement of the £8 million to continue the work of the conservation area regeneration scheme, and the key performance targets for planning ...
Ted Brocklebank (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I am a fan of Historic Scotland, although there are aspects of its operation with which I disagree, to which I will return. I continue to believe that the ag...
Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD):
LD
I welcome this rare opportunity to focus on the role of Historic Scotland. At one point, I was concerned about whether there would be a ministerial statement...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
We move to the debate. Speeches should be of six minutes.
Rob Gibson (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
I very much welcome this opportunity to explore the co-operation between Historic Scotland and local authorities, which the minister has enhanced today with ...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome this debate on Historic Scotland and its joint working with local authorities, because we should discuss its role in administering Scotland's histo...
John Farquhar Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD):
LD
I am pleased to take part in a debate during which we have heard about numerous anomalies and difficulties relating to the work of our colleagues in Historic...
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
You alluded to Eilean Donan castle as having been a pile of rocks, but I remind you that it was under your party's Administration that Castle Tioram remained...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
That did not happen under my party's Administration.
John Farquhar Munro:
LD
I do not think that the issue was ever debated seriously in the Scottish Parliament, because it was simply a planning matter between Highland Council and His...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I thank John Farquhar Munro for reminding us that one of Scotland's iconic structures dates from only about 70 years ago, thus depriving us of any historical...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
There is no doubt that the conservation and reuse of buildings must rank highly in terms of sustainability. Ensuring that restoration is sympathetic is a cru...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP):
SNP
I start with a declaration of interest. Like many in the chamber, as a member of a local authority I have been involved in planning issues for a number of ye...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab):
Lab
I declare an interest as a member of Historic Scotland.As others have said, our distinctive environment has been formed by centuries of activity by nature an...
Liam McArthur (Orkney) (LD):
LD
Like Patricia Ferguson and Willie Coffey, I declare an interest as a member of Historic Scotland. As a result of that membership, I have sons who have a heal...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member has one minute left.
Liam McArthur:
LD
In my constituency I know of situations in which there has been a complete failure to communicate properly or to engage with local stakeholders. Although I f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member must conclude now.
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
I am pleased to speak in the debate, which has been very informative. In 2004, during a similar debate, I made a speech that was partially critical of Histor...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I am happy to support Iain Smith's amendment, with its emphasis on effective engagement with local communities in relation to listed buildings. More generall...
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
The most sensible thing that I have heard Malcolm Chisholm say today is that I will not have enough time. He is right: in the eight minutes that are availabl...