Chamber
Plenary, 23 Apr 2008
23 Apr 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Historic Scotland and Local Authorities
Like Patricia Ferguson and Willie Coffey, I declare an interest as a member of Historic Scotland. As a result of that membership, I have sons who have a healthy fascination with castles and a rather unhealthy determination to never knowingly be underarmed.
This afternoon's debate has been a good one. There have been many thoughtful speeches. Helen Eadie's points about disability and access were pertinent. Most speakers, though not all, have paid eloquent testimony to the importance and breadth of the work that is carried out by Historic Scotland. I associate myself with Ted Brocklebank's remarks about the historic concordat, although his reference to the inadequate budget of Historic Scotland leads me to question why the Tories were so keen to support the Government's budget from such an early stage.
I am pleased that the minister acknowledged the extent to which she is developing work that was put in train by the previous Executive, under Malcolm Chisholm and Patricia Ferguson, and I welcome her announcement on funding and the organisational changes that will, I hope, bear dividends.
Like others, I will talk about examples in my constituency, in which Historic Scotland is an exceptionally important player. The heart of Neolithic Orkney is one of only three world heritage sites in Scotland, and acts as a magnet for the thousands of tourists who come to Orkney each year. Not for nothing has Lonely Planet described Orkney as
"a glittering centrepiece in Scotland's treasure chest of attractions."
Historic Scotland's stewardship of Skara Brae, Maeshowe and other sites in Orkney is a critical factor in helping the islands maintain and develop the quality of the tourism experience. Of course, Skara Brae, the ring of Brodgar and Maeshowe are also at the heart of Orkney's unrivalled archaeological heritage. They not only attract tourists to the islands, but provide archaeologists from the United Kingdom and across the world with invaluable hands-on experience and a unique opportunity to gain an insight into what life was like 4,000 to 5,000 years ago.
Malcolm Chisholm might be able to lay claim to having the constituency that contains the most listed buildings, but farmers in my constituency have suggested to me—sometimes with a degree of exasperation—that they can barely stick a spade in the ground anywhere in Orkney without the risk of unearthing some archaeological artefact. Although we feel blessed, such an abundance of archaeological riches is not without its challenges. However, I believe that they can be managed in a way that prevents damaging conflict between farming and archaeological interests, which is something that I have taken up with the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs and the Environment.
That abundant resource has enabled Orkney College to develop a first-class archaeology course framework, including PhDs, which will serve the University of the Highlands and Islands well in the future.
Historic Scotland's work in Orkney is vital and the organisation interacts well with the council. As the minister quite rightly pointed out, excellent joint work is already under way. Crucially, Historic Scotland also interacts well with VisitOrkney, businesses in the local tourism sector and others.
There has been a great deal to commend in recent years. For example, I know that the ranger service that is operated by Historic Scotland is extremely popular and greatly valued in Orkney. That service, which is run by astonishingly dedicated and informed people, has helped to develop understanding and appreciation of what Orkney has to offer, among Orcadians as well as tourists. Such is the appetite for finding out more about Orkney's archaeological heritage that Radio Orkney dedicates a regular programme to the subject, fronted by the irrepressible and hugely impressive Caroline Wickham Jones. An improvement in interpretation and facilities at Skara Brae has opened up new opportunities for people visiting the site. Rob Gibson made some good points about the importance of good interpretation.
Although I do not wish to decry that in any way, we need a sensible debate about capacity and the extent to which Skara Brae and other Historic Scotland sites in Orkney—and, I suspect, elsewhere—can continue to withstand the sort of footfall that there has been in recent years. The figures that Historic Scotland released earlier this week boasted, quite rightly, of impressive increases in the numbers of people visiting the sites, including Skara Brae. However, careful attention needs to be paid to how those numbers are being managed and the steps that are being taken to maintain the quality of the experience for tourists and the fabric of the sites themselves.
My colleague Iain Smith highlighted concerns about the way in which Historic Scotland designates listed buildings and scheduled monuments. That can, as he made clear, have the perverse effect of blighting an area by preventing sensible and sensitive development of the building in question. I know from my dealings with Historic Scotland staff locally of the genuine commitment and efforts that they make to work collaboratively with others in the best interests of the islands. However, whether by design or oversight, Historic Scotland has yet to persuade me that it has fully grasped what is involved in being part of a genuine partnership with local communities. Its statutory role and the undoubted expertise of its staff do on occasions appear to blinker it to the views, and sometimes even the rights, of local stakeholders, although I would not go quite as far as John Farquhar Munro's comments in that respect.
This afternoon's debate has been a good one. There have been many thoughtful speeches. Helen Eadie's points about disability and access were pertinent. Most speakers, though not all, have paid eloquent testimony to the importance and breadth of the work that is carried out by Historic Scotland. I associate myself with Ted Brocklebank's remarks about the historic concordat, although his reference to the inadequate budget of Historic Scotland leads me to question why the Tories were so keen to support the Government's budget from such an early stage.
I am pleased that the minister acknowledged the extent to which she is developing work that was put in train by the previous Executive, under Malcolm Chisholm and Patricia Ferguson, and I welcome her announcement on funding and the organisational changes that will, I hope, bear dividends.
Like others, I will talk about examples in my constituency, in which Historic Scotland is an exceptionally important player. The heart of Neolithic Orkney is one of only three world heritage sites in Scotland, and acts as a magnet for the thousands of tourists who come to Orkney each year. Not for nothing has Lonely Planet described Orkney as
"a glittering centrepiece in Scotland's treasure chest of attractions."
Historic Scotland's stewardship of Skara Brae, Maeshowe and other sites in Orkney is a critical factor in helping the islands maintain and develop the quality of the tourism experience. Of course, Skara Brae, the ring of Brodgar and Maeshowe are also at the heart of Orkney's unrivalled archaeological heritage. They not only attract tourists to the islands, but provide archaeologists from the United Kingdom and across the world with invaluable hands-on experience and a unique opportunity to gain an insight into what life was like 4,000 to 5,000 years ago.
Malcolm Chisholm might be able to lay claim to having the constituency that contains the most listed buildings, but farmers in my constituency have suggested to me—sometimes with a degree of exasperation—that they can barely stick a spade in the ground anywhere in Orkney without the risk of unearthing some archaeological artefact. Although we feel blessed, such an abundance of archaeological riches is not without its challenges. However, I believe that they can be managed in a way that prevents damaging conflict between farming and archaeological interests, which is something that I have taken up with the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs and the Environment.
That abundant resource has enabled Orkney College to develop a first-class archaeology course framework, including PhDs, which will serve the University of the Highlands and Islands well in the future.
Historic Scotland's work in Orkney is vital and the organisation interacts well with the council. As the minister quite rightly pointed out, excellent joint work is already under way. Crucially, Historic Scotland also interacts well with VisitOrkney, businesses in the local tourism sector and others.
There has been a great deal to commend in recent years. For example, I know that the ranger service that is operated by Historic Scotland is extremely popular and greatly valued in Orkney. That service, which is run by astonishingly dedicated and informed people, has helped to develop understanding and appreciation of what Orkney has to offer, among Orcadians as well as tourists. Such is the appetite for finding out more about Orkney's archaeological heritage that Radio Orkney dedicates a regular programme to the subject, fronted by the irrepressible and hugely impressive Caroline Wickham Jones. An improvement in interpretation and facilities at Skara Brae has opened up new opportunities for people visiting the site. Rob Gibson made some good points about the importance of good interpretation.
Although I do not wish to decry that in any way, we need a sensible debate about capacity and the extent to which Skara Brae and other Historic Scotland sites in Orkney—and, I suspect, elsewhere—can continue to withstand the sort of footfall that there has been in recent years. The figures that Historic Scotland released earlier this week boasted, quite rightly, of impressive increases in the numbers of people visiting the sites, including Skara Brae. However, careful attention needs to be paid to how those numbers are being managed and the steps that are being taken to maintain the quality of the experience for tourists and the fabric of the sites themselves.
My colleague Iain Smith highlighted concerns about the way in which Historic Scotland designates listed buildings and scheduled monuments. That can, as he made clear, have the perverse effect of blighting an area by preventing sensible and sensitive development of the building in question. I know from my dealings with Historic Scotland staff locally of the genuine commitment and efforts that they make to work collaboratively with others in the best interests of the islands. However, whether by design or oversight, Historic Scotland has yet to persuade me that it has fully grasped what is involved in being part of a genuine partnership with local communities. Its statutory role and the undoubted expertise of its staff do on occasions appear to blinker it to the views, and sometimes even the rights, of local stakeholders, although I would not go quite as far as John Farquhar Munro's comments in that respect.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on S3M-1751, in the name of Linda Fabiani, on Historic Scotland and local authorities.
The Minister for Europe, External Affairs and Culture (Linda Fabiani):
SNP
I am pleased to open the debate, which allows me to highlight the many ways in which central and local government are working together to deliver a sustainab...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the announcement of the £8 million to continue the work of the conservation area regeneration scheme, and the key performance targets for planning ...
Ted Brocklebank (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I am a fan of Historic Scotland, although there are aspects of its operation with which I disagree, to which I will return. I continue to believe that the ag...
Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD):
LD
I welcome this rare opportunity to focus on the role of Historic Scotland. At one point, I was concerned about whether there would be a ministerial statement...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
We move to the debate. Speeches should be of six minutes.
Rob Gibson (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
I very much welcome this opportunity to explore the co-operation between Historic Scotland and local authorities, which the minister has enhanced today with ...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome this debate on Historic Scotland and its joint working with local authorities, because we should discuss its role in administering Scotland's histo...
John Farquhar Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD):
LD
I am pleased to take part in a debate during which we have heard about numerous anomalies and difficulties relating to the work of our colleagues in Historic...
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
You alluded to Eilean Donan castle as having been a pile of rocks, but I remind you that it was under your party's Administration that Castle Tioram remained...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
That did not happen under my party's Administration.
John Farquhar Munro:
LD
I do not think that the issue was ever debated seriously in the Scottish Parliament, because it was simply a planning matter between Highland Council and His...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I thank John Farquhar Munro for reminding us that one of Scotland's iconic structures dates from only about 70 years ago, thus depriving us of any historical...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
There is no doubt that the conservation and reuse of buildings must rank highly in terms of sustainability. Ensuring that restoration is sympathetic is a cru...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP):
SNP
I start with a declaration of interest. Like many in the chamber, as a member of a local authority I have been involved in planning issues for a number of ye...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab):
Lab
I declare an interest as a member of Historic Scotland.As others have said, our distinctive environment has been formed by centuries of activity by nature an...
Liam McArthur (Orkney) (LD):
LD
Like Patricia Ferguson and Willie Coffey, I declare an interest as a member of Historic Scotland. As a result of that membership, I have sons who have a heal...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member has one minute left.
Liam McArthur:
LD
In my constituency I know of situations in which there has been a complete failure to communicate properly or to engage with local stakeholders. Although I f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member must conclude now.
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
I am pleased to speak in the debate, which has been very informative. In 2004, during a similar debate, I made a speech that was partially critical of Histor...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I am happy to support Iain Smith's amendment, with its emphasis on effective engagement with local communities in relation to listed buildings. More generall...
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
The most sensible thing that I have heard Malcolm Chisholm say today is that I will not have enough time. He is right: in the eight minutes that are availabl...