Chamber
Plenary, 23 Apr 2008
23 Apr 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Historic Scotland and Local Authorities
I declare an interest as a member of Historic Scotland.
As others have said, our distinctive environment has been formed by centuries of activity by nature and by man. It has helped to make Scotland the nation it is. Whether we live in cities, towns or the countryside, the history of our nation is all around us. It is not just in our castles and great buildings; it is in the townscapes, the parks and even beneath the sea; it is in the field systems, the roads, the buildings we live in, the places where we worship and the everyday landmarks we pass by.
Our historic environment shapes who we are and contributes to our sense of place. It is also a major driver of our economy, with some 83 per cent of visitors to our country visiting at least one historic site while they are here and with many citing our history as a reason for their visit. And of course, it is an educational tool that has helped to inspire our literature and art for centuries. Our built heritage is therefore important on a whole range of fronts. If it is lost or damaged, it cannot be replaced.
As far back as 1882, it was recognised that to safeguard our built heritage it was necessary to legislate. Over the years, legislation has changed to fit the times, and rightly so. However, care has always been taken to ensure that, as with the planning system more generally, appropriate checks and balances are in place. The minister is quite right to want to see the correct balance between Historic Scotland and local government.
Malcolm Chisholm mentioned the minister's response to suggestions in the HEACS report, and I want to mention one other suggestion. HEACS suggested that the Government should commission an independent survey of local authorities—a survey of their policies, staffing and resource levels for the care of the historic environment. That work is under way. Would it not therefore have been better to await the completion of that work—which I understand is due this year, although I am not aware whether it has yet been made public—before making the kind of suggestions indicated today? I would be grateful if the minister could give us some clarity on the resources to be allocated for that purpose within local authorities—or, indeed, to local authorities. Perhaps the minister could expand on how she thinks the effectiveness of the pilots will be monitored. Are the single outcome agreements the right place for that? Personally, I do not think so, but the minister might have thought of an alternative.
Rob Gibson laboured to find a way of working in the words "concordat" and "historical", so as not to offend Ted Brocklebank. However, I hope that I can go one better. I seem to remember launching a Scottish historic environment policy not all that long ago—well, it was a wee while ago now—that talked about concordats with Historic Scotland, Scottish Natural Heritage, the National Trust for Scotland and others. The use of the word "concordat" is perhaps even more historical than has been recognised.
Two big issues face Historic Scotland. The first is the challenge of ensuring that, wherever possible, buildings are accessible to all who would like to visit them. Helen Eadie went into issue in some detail, covering all the points thoroughly. The second is to respond to the increasing demand from home owners for green energy through the use of solar panels, wind turbines and the like. Historic Scotland will have to turn its attention to that issue even more seriously in the coming days.
I believe strongly that the reuse of buildings is one of the greenest things that we can do. I am always delighted when buildings, such as Maryhill burgh halls in my constituency, slowly begin to emerge from a moribund state to become a valuable resource within a community. Another example is the award-winning St Georges in the Field church, which now provides homes for some 16 families in my constituency. I used to live in it too—although I am not sure whether that is an interest that I have to declare.
Chris Harvie has left the chamber, but he mentioned the devastation that took place in Glasgow. My constituency suffered, as did many others. However, being able to retain the two buildings that I mentioned, along with two Rennie Mackintosh buildings, has certainly given my constituency of Maryhill a sense of place and its people a sense of belonging.
Historic Scotland needs to work with its partners to ensure that the skills needed for the preservation of historic buildings are maintained. I know that good work has been going on with the Scottish Lime Centre Trust and the National Stone Centre. Those efforts are quite ironic, considering the actions of the Government in relation to modern apprenticeships.
Iain Smith's amendment rightly mentions the involvement of local communities, which Willie Coffey also mentioned. I firmly believe that community planning has a strong role to play in that regard. I would like additional work to be done in that area, but it is important that any such involvement must be informed. I see Historic Scotland in the role of an educator, in terms of interpreting the premises that we have, as Chris Harvie and Rob Gibson mentioned, and in the role of a body that can discuss historic buildings and our environment with the relevant communities.
I pay tribute to Historic Scotland and its staff for the changes that have been made in recent years. I also pay tribute to the work of HEACS and other partners who have worked with Historic Scotland.
We all take this issue seriously and it is of great interest to me to be able to be part of this debate.
As others have said, our distinctive environment has been formed by centuries of activity by nature and by man. It has helped to make Scotland the nation it is. Whether we live in cities, towns or the countryside, the history of our nation is all around us. It is not just in our castles and great buildings; it is in the townscapes, the parks and even beneath the sea; it is in the field systems, the roads, the buildings we live in, the places where we worship and the everyday landmarks we pass by.
Our historic environment shapes who we are and contributes to our sense of place. It is also a major driver of our economy, with some 83 per cent of visitors to our country visiting at least one historic site while they are here and with many citing our history as a reason for their visit. And of course, it is an educational tool that has helped to inspire our literature and art for centuries. Our built heritage is therefore important on a whole range of fronts. If it is lost or damaged, it cannot be replaced.
As far back as 1882, it was recognised that to safeguard our built heritage it was necessary to legislate. Over the years, legislation has changed to fit the times, and rightly so. However, care has always been taken to ensure that, as with the planning system more generally, appropriate checks and balances are in place. The minister is quite right to want to see the correct balance between Historic Scotland and local government.
Malcolm Chisholm mentioned the minister's response to suggestions in the HEACS report, and I want to mention one other suggestion. HEACS suggested that the Government should commission an independent survey of local authorities—a survey of their policies, staffing and resource levels for the care of the historic environment. That work is under way. Would it not therefore have been better to await the completion of that work—which I understand is due this year, although I am not aware whether it has yet been made public—before making the kind of suggestions indicated today? I would be grateful if the minister could give us some clarity on the resources to be allocated for that purpose within local authorities—or, indeed, to local authorities. Perhaps the minister could expand on how she thinks the effectiveness of the pilots will be monitored. Are the single outcome agreements the right place for that? Personally, I do not think so, but the minister might have thought of an alternative.
Rob Gibson laboured to find a way of working in the words "concordat" and "historical", so as not to offend Ted Brocklebank. However, I hope that I can go one better. I seem to remember launching a Scottish historic environment policy not all that long ago—well, it was a wee while ago now—that talked about concordats with Historic Scotland, Scottish Natural Heritage, the National Trust for Scotland and others. The use of the word "concordat" is perhaps even more historical than has been recognised.
Two big issues face Historic Scotland. The first is the challenge of ensuring that, wherever possible, buildings are accessible to all who would like to visit them. Helen Eadie went into issue in some detail, covering all the points thoroughly. The second is to respond to the increasing demand from home owners for green energy through the use of solar panels, wind turbines and the like. Historic Scotland will have to turn its attention to that issue even more seriously in the coming days.
I believe strongly that the reuse of buildings is one of the greenest things that we can do. I am always delighted when buildings, such as Maryhill burgh halls in my constituency, slowly begin to emerge from a moribund state to become a valuable resource within a community. Another example is the award-winning St Georges in the Field church, which now provides homes for some 16 families in my constituency. I used to live in it too—although I am not sure whether that is an interest that I have to declare.
Chris Harvie has left the chamber, but he mentioned the devastation that took place in Glasgow. My constituency suffered, as did many others. However, being able to retain the two buildings that I mentioned, along with two Rennie Mackintosh buildings, has certainly given my constituency of Maryhill a sense of place and its people a sense of belonging.
Historic Scotland needs to work with its partners to ensure that the skills needed for the preservation of historic buildings are maintained. I know that good work has been going on with the Scottish Lime Centre Trust and the National Stone Centre. Those efforts are quite ironic, considering the actions of the Government in relation to modern apprenticeships.
Iain Smith's amendment rightly mentions the involvement of local communities, which Willie Coffey also mentioned. I firmly believe that community planning has a strong role to play in that regard. I would like additional work to be done in that area, but it is important that any such involvement must be informed. I see Historic Scotland in the role of an educator, in terms of interpreting the premises that we have, as Chris Harvie and Rob Gibson mentioned, and in the role of a body that can discuss historic buildings and our environment with the relevant communities.
I pay tribute to Historic Scotland and its staff for the changes that have been made in recent years. I also pay tribute to the work of HEACS and other partners who have worked with Historic Scotland.
We all take this issue seriously and it is of great interest to me to be able to be part of this debate.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on S3M-1751, in the name of Linda Fabiani, on Historic Scotland and local authorities.
The Minister for Europe, External Affairs and Culture (Linda Fabiani):
SNP
I am pleased to open the debate, which allows me to highlight the many ways in which central and local government are working together to deliver a sustainab...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the announcement of the £8 million to continue the work of the conservation area regeneration scheme, and the key performance targets for planning ...
Ted Brocklebank (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I am a fan of Historic Scotland, although there are aspects of its operation with which I disagree, to which I will return. I continue to believe that the ag...
Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD):
LD
I welcome this rare opportunity to focus on the role of Historic Scotland. At one point, I was concerned about whether there would be a ministerial statement...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
We move to the debate. Speeches should be of six minutes.
Rob Gibson (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
I very much welcome this opportunity to explore the co-operation between Historic Scotland and local authorities, which the minister has enhanced today with ...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome this debate on Historic Scotland and its joint working with local authorities, because we should discuss its role in administering Scotland's histo...
John Farquhar Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD):
LD
I am pleased to take part in a debate during which we have heard about numerous anomalies and difficulties relating to the work of our colleagues in Historic...
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
You alluded to Eilean Donan castle as having been a pile of rocks, but I remind you that it was under your party's Administration that Castle Tioram remained...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
That did not happen under my party's Administration.
John Farquhar Munro:
LD
I do not think that the issue was ever debated seriously in the Scottish Parliament, because it was simply a planning matter between Highland Council and His...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I thank John Farquhar Munro for reminding us that one of Scotland's iconic structures dates from only about 70 years ago, thus depriving us of any historical...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
There is no doubt that the conservation and reuse of buildings must rank highly in terms of sustainability. Ensuring that restoration is sympathetic is a cru...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP):
SNP
I start with a declaration of interest. Like many in the chamber, as a member of a local authority I have been involved in planning issues for a number of ye...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab):
Lab
I declare an interest as a member of Historic Scotland.As others have said, our distinctive environment has been formed by centuries of activity by nature an...
Liam McArthur (Orkney) (LD):
LD
Like Patricia Ferguson and Willie Coffey, I declare an interest as a member of Historic Scotland. As a result of that membership, I have sons who have a heal...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member has one minute left.
Liam McArthur:
LD
In my constituency I know of situations in which there has been a complete failure to communicate properly or to engage with local stakeholders. Although I f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member must conclude now.
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
I am pleased to speak in the debate, which has been very informative. In 2004, during a similar debate, I made a speech that was partially critical of Histor...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I am happy to support Iain Smith's amendment, with its emphasis on effective engagement with local communities in relation to listed buildings. More generall...
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
The most sensible thing that I have heard Malcolm Chisholm say today is that I will not have enough time. He is right: in the eight minutes that are availabl...