Chamber
Plenary, 23 Apr 2008
23 Apr 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Historic Scotland and Local Authorities
There is no doubt that the conservation and reuse of buildings must rank highly in terms of sustainability. Ensuring that restoration is sympathetic is a crucial role for Historic Scotland. I wish to focus on how local authorities and Historic Scotland can do better, with particular regard to rights for people with disabilities. My comments stem from one of the responses to the consultation.
A Disability Rights Commission report tells us that about 10 million disabled people, and 700,000 disabled children, are covered by disability legislation in Great Britain. It is estimated that almost 1 million disabled adults are likely to be covered by such legislation in Scotland. Scotland has an ageing population, and the probability of having a disability increases with age. It is important that the principles of inclusive design are implemented by those people who shape the built environment, to ensure that the increasing proportion of people who are disabled can participate in mainstream society.
I realise that adapting buildings with cultural or historical significance to meet the needs of disabled people can give rise to conflicting requirements. However, that does not mean that buildings cannot be altered in a sensitive fashion, and it does not prevent the occupiers of buildings from circumventing such barriers through appropriate policies, practices and procedures.
I count myself as a supporter of Historic Scotland but, in celebrating the work of the agency, I ask the minister to accept that, if I seem critical, I mean it constructively. I am concerned that, as was perfectly highlighted by the Disability Rights Commission, little or no guidance originates from Scotland with regard to Historic Scotland, the planning authorities and building control.
In its report, the Disability Rights Commission summarised research that was undertaken by Tom Lister Associates on behalf of the DRC and Historic Scotland on the planning and listed building consent application process concerning accessibility improvements to historic buildings and the role of local authorities.
According to the report, the research was made up of two key parts: a literature review and case studies of three Scottish councils. The literature review identified the key legislation and guidance, as it applies in Scotland, on improving access for disabled people to historic buildings. Each case study was split into two main sections. The first part of each case study reviewed planning application data and the second part contained interviews with council officers, including planners, building standards surveyors and local access panel members. Policy documents from all three councils were reviewed.
The research found that
"The interviewed planners did not see the promotion of accessibility issues as a key part of their role. The planning legislation gives little or no regard to inclusive design issues. Accessibility is seen as an issue for designers to address and building standards officers to enforce."
The report noted that
"if the introduction of access statements becomes a requirement of planning permission for certain developments this could assist greatly"
and it hoped that the revision of the Scottish building standards in 2007 would be another step forward.
Among the report's recommendations, it said:
"• A joint planning and building standards approach to inclusive design is required to deliver environments which are accessible to everyone. This is even more important when adapting the historic environment, where a balance has to be struck between accessibility and the preservation of the structure or site. Only considering accessibility issues at the building warrant stage may mean the opportunities to integrate the access requirements sensitively into a design are lost.
• Until inclusive design is included in Scottish planning and building standards legislation, Councils will have no duty to insist on inclusive environments. A statutory obligation should be placed on local authorities to consider and recommend access improvements to historic buildings during the planning and listed building consent application process.
• An applicant should be required to submit an access statement to support their planning application. This would assist planners when assessing accessibility issues. This places the onus, from the very start of the project, on designers to take an holistic approach to addressing the needs of disabled people.
• Many individuals and interested parties have a role to play in ensuring that listed buildings become more accessible to disabled people. They include:
• Local authorities
• Designers
• Access panels
• Historic Scotland
• The occupier of the listed building/applicant.
There has to be a dialogue between all interested parties. Communication must be formalised to ensure that access issues are given due consideration in planning and listed building consent applications."
There is a legal imperative for service providers to consider whether it is necessary for them to adapt their listed buildings in order to meet their duties under the terms of the disability legislation. Although there is little or no up-to-date Scottish guidance on improving access to historic buildings, a body of relevant good-practice guidance is available from elsewhere in the United Kingdom for designers and managers of listed buildings on how to meet the needs of disabled people in a manner sympathetic to the historic fabric of their buildings. I ask the minister to use her office to deliver for the people of Scotland.
A Disability Rights Commission report tells us that about 10 million disabled people, and 700,000 disabled children, are covered by disability legislation in Great Britain. It is estimated that almost 1 million disabled adults are likely to be covered by such legislation in Scotland. Scotland has an ageing population, and the probability of having a disability increases with age. It is important that the principles of inclusive design are implemented by those people who shape the built environment, to ensure that the increasing proportion of people who are disabled can participate in mainstream society.
I realise that adapting buildings with cultural or historical significance to meet the needs of disabled people can give rise to conflicting requirements. However, that does not mean that buildings cannot be altered in a sensitive fashion, and it does not prevent the occupiers of buildings from circumventing such barriers through appropriate policies, practices and procedures.
I count myself as a supporter of Historic Scotland but, in celebrating the work of the agency, I ask the minister to accept that, if I seem critical, I mean it constructively. I am concerned that, as was perfectly highlighted by the Disability Rights Commission, little or no guidance originates from Scotland with regard to Historic Scotland, the planning authorities and building control.
In its report, the Disability Rights Commission summarised research that was undertaken by Tom Lister Associates on behalf of the DRC and Historic Scotland on the planning and listed building consent application process concerning accessibility improvements to historic buildings and the role of local authorities.
According to the report, the research was made up of two key parts: a literature review and case studies of three Scottish councils. The literature review identified the key legislation and guidance, as it applies in Scotland, on improving access for disabled people to historic buildings. Each case study was split into two main sections. The first part of each case study reviewed planning application data and the second part contained interviews with council officers, including planners, building standards surveyors and local access panel members. Policy documents from all three councils were reviewed.
The research found that
"The interviewed planners did not see the promotion of accessibility issues as a key part of their role. The planning legislation gives little or no regard to inclusive design issues. Accessibility is seen as an issue for designers to address and building standards officers to enforce."
The report noted that
"if the introduction of access statements becomes a requirement of planning permission for certain developments this could assist greatly"
and it hoped that the revision of the Scottish building standards in 2007 would be another step forward.
Among the report's recommendations, it said:
"• A joint planning and building standards approach to inclusive design is required to deliver environments which are accessible to everyone. This is even more important when adapting the historic environment, where a balance has to be struck between accessibility and the preservation of the structure or site. Only considering accessibility issues at the building warrant stage may mean the opportunities to integrate the access requirements sensitively into a design are lost.
• Until inclusive design is included in Scottish planning and building standards legislation, Councils will have no duty to insist on inclusive environments. A statutory obligation should be placed on local authorities to consider and recommend access improvements to historic buildings during the planning and listed building consent application process.
• An applicant should be required to submit an access statement to support their planning application. This would assist planners when assessing accessibility issues. This places the onus, from the very start of the project, on designers to take an holistic approach to addressing the needs of disabled people.
• Many individuals and interested parties have a role to play in ensuring that listed buildings become more accessible to disabled people. They include:
• Local authorities
• Designers
• Access panels
• Historic Scotland
• The occupier of the listed building/applicant.
There has to be a dialogue between all interested parties. Communication must be formalised to ensure that access issues are given due consideration in planning and listed building consent applications."
There is a legal imperative for service providers to consider whether it is necessary for them to adapt their listed buildings in order to meet their duties under the terms of the disability legislation. Although there is little or no up-to-date Scottish guidance on improving access to historic buildings, a body of relevant good-practice guidance is available from elsewhere in the United Kingdom for designers and managers of listed buildings on how to meet the needs of disabled people in a manner sympathetic to the historic fabric of their buildings. I ask the minister to use her office to deliver for the people of Scotland.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on S3M-1751, in the name of Linda Fabiani, on Historic Scotland and local authorities.
The Minister for Europe, External Affairs and Culture (Linda Fabiani):
SNP
I am pleased to open the debate, which allows me to highlight the many ways in which central and local government are working together to deliver a sustainab...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the announcement of the £8 million to continue the work of the conservation area regeneration scheme, and the key performance targets for planning ...
Ted Brocklebank (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I am a fan of Historic Scotland, although there are aspects of its operation with which I disagree, to which I will return. I continue to believe that the ag...
Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD):
LD
I welcome this rare opportunity to focus on the role of Historic Scotland. At one point, I was concerned about whether there would be a ministerial statement...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
We move to the debate. Speeches should be of six minutes.
Rob Gibson (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
I very much welcome this opportunity to explore the co-operation between Historic Scotland and local authorities, which the minister has enhanced today with ...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome this debate on Historic Scotland and its joint working with local authorities, because we should discuss its role in administering Scotland's histo...
John Farquhar Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD):
LD
I am pleased to take part in a debate during which we have heard about numerous anomalies and difficulties relating to the work of our colleagues in Historic...
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
You alluded to Eilean Donan castle as having been a pile of rocks, but I remind you that it was under your party's Administration that Castle Tioram remained...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
That did not happen under my party's Administration.
John Farquhar Munro:
LD
I do not think that the issue was ever debated seriously in the Scottish Parliament, because it was simply a planning matter between Highland Council and His...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I thank John Farquhar Munro for reminding us that one of Scotland's iconic structures dates from only about 70 years ago, thus depriving us of any historical...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
There is no doubt that the conservation and reuse of buildings must rank highly in terms of sustainability. Ensuring that restoration is sympathetic is a cru...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP):
SNP
I start with a declaration of interest. Like many in the chamber, as a member of a local authority I have been involved in planning issues for a number of ye...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab):
Lab
I declare an interest as a member of Historic Scotland.As others have said, our distinctive environment has been formed by centuries of activity by nature an...
Liam McArthur (Orkney) (LD):
LD
Like Patricia Ferguson and Willie Coffey, I declare an interest as a member of Historic Scotland. As a result of that membership, I have sons who have a heal...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member has one minute left.
Liam McArthur:
LD
In my constituency I know of situations in which there has been a complete failure to communicate properly or to engage with local stakeholders. Although I f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member must conclude now.
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
I am pleased to speak in the debate, which has been very informative. In 2004, during a similar debate, I made a speech that was partially critical of Histor...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I am happy to support Iain Smith's amendment, with its emphasis on effective engagement with local communities in relation to listed buildings. More generall...
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
The most sensible thing that I have heard Malcolm Chisholm say today is that I will not have enough time. He is right: in the eight minutes that are availabl...