Chamber
Plenary, 23 Apr 2008
23 Apr 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Historic Scotland and Local Authorities
I thank John Farquhar Munro for reminding us that one of Scotland's iconic structures dates from only about 70 years ago, thus depriving us of any historical authenticity when Errol Flynn rode across the castle in the adaptation of Stevenson's "The Master of Ballantrae", which itself made a pile of rubble of Stevenson's novel.
How we regard our history has always changed over time. Let us recollect that even the great Lord Cockburn—an association with whose name governs the development of Edinburgh—loathed classical Edinburgh and regarded it as a terrible carbuncle, as someone once said, on the face of the city. Let us also recollect that the great actor Moultrie Kelsall used to characterise Scotland's attitude to its past as late as the 1960s as, "There's an auld hoose; ding it doon!" Let us recollect that the University of Glasgow, at the height of its scientific achievement in the 1860s, was prepared to knock down its renaissance building and replace it with a sensible goods station in the High Street. So much for romanticism.
Let us recollect also that the Bruce report on Glasgow in 1948 recommended devastating the entire central city area, including God knows how many buildings by Charles Rennie Mackintosh, and replacing it with something out of Le Corbusier. Let us recollect how Princes Street in Edinburgh was redeveloped by the Scottish elite, including the members of the New Club, in the 1960s, until practically every building of historic value had been knocked down. A development politician in Glasgow, who shall be nameless, was characterised by my Labour friend Robin Cook as a man who would not rest until he had knocked down every listed building in the town.
We have changed since those days, but if we are to reinforce the approach that the minister proposed, we require a much greater degree of public engagement in our civic architecture in Scotland. The man who said to a northern English town, "You want me to tell you what Bradford should produce; I want you to tell me what Bradford ought to be", was a Scotsman—John Ruskin. His attitude should remain central in our minds.
How do we handle a situation in which our historic environment is one of our picture cards for our international position and our tourism industry? Thinking about positive building, and not just the conservation of historic buildings, how do we ensure that the buildings that we get are better than the one that recently featured in an advert—which bugged me—in the building supplement of The Scotsman? It showed a supposedly baronial building built by one of our biggest contractors. It looked as if it was the work of an architectural McGonagall. In fact, McGonagall would probably have done rather better than that shambles of bogus detailing parked on an orthodox suburban home.
Let me remind members of a couple of things that happened quite recently. First, in 1971, one of our greatest tourist attractions was falling to bits, and no one was concerned to conserve it. A young colleague of mine at a university in Scotland sent off a report to Anthony Greenwood—Lord Greenwood—who moved a motion in the House of Lords to commemorate Robert Owen. The report pointed out that New Lanark could be pulled down almost any day—it had been sold to a scrap merchant. Greenwood mentioned that in the debate on Owen, and the result was a £250,000 bridging grant, which enabled what is now a massive historical accretion to our tourism industry to be saved.
Two years later, what became, in the past year, the greatest terminal success story of London, the opening of St Pancras station as the international terminal, was saved from the rational decision of the British Government to pull it down by an elderly, eccentric poet. In contradistinction to terminal 5 at London airport, St Pancras has been one of the glorious successes of communication.
We should think not just in terms of legislation and intervention to conserve our environment. We should think in terms of stirring things up. Why are there so many well-produced brochures by historical organisations and bureaucracies? Why do we not have a commercial cultural periodical, existing through conventional sales and advertisements, into which such material could contribute as sources of cash, while helping to sustain a debate on the issues that we are discussing? It was through such debate that St Pancras station, for example, was conserved. It is through that sort of mechanism that I hope we can think positively about things that are probably unthinkable at the moment, such as putting a roof back on Linlithgow palace, which was burned down by drunks in the 1745 rising. Why not train up the essential people such as masons and carpenters whom we need to restore such buildings? If we do not do that, conservation will go by the board.
How we regard our history has always changed over time. Let us recollect that even the great Lord Cockburn—an association with whose name governs the development of Edinburgh—loathed classical Edinburgh and regarded it as a terrible carbuncle, as someone once said, on the face of the city. Let us also recollect that the great actor Moultrie Kelsall used to characterise Scotland's attitude to its past as late as the 1960s as, "There's an auld hoose; ding it doon!" Let us recollect that the University of Glasgow, at the height of its scientific achievement in the 1860s, was prepared to knock down its renaissance building and replace it with a sensible goods station in the High Street. So much for romanticism.
Let us recollect also that the Bruce report on Glasgow in 1948 recommended devastating the entire central city area, including God knows how many buildings by Charles Rennie Mackintosh, and replacing it with something out of Le Corbusier. Let us recollect how Princes Street in Edinburgh was redeveloped by the Scottish elite, including the members of the New Club, in the 1960s, until practically every building of historic value had been knocked down. A development politician in Glasgow, who shall be nameless, was characterised by my Labour friend Robin Cook as a man who would not rest until he had knocked down every listed building in the town.
We have changed since those days, but if we are to reinforce the approach that the minister proposed, we require a much greater degree of public engagement in our civic architecture in Scotland. The man who said to a northern English town, "You want me to tell you what Bradford should produce; I want you to tell me what Bradford ought to be", was a Scotsman—John Ruskin. His attitude should remain central in our minds.
How do we handle a situation in which our historic environment is one of our picture cards for our international position and our tourism industry? Thinking about positive building, and not just the conservation of historic buildings, how do we ensure that the buildings that we get are better than the one that recently featured in an advert—which bugged me—in the building supplement of The Scotsman? It showed a supposedly baronial building built by one of our biggest contractors. It looked as if it was the work of an architectural McGonagall. In fact, McGonagall would probably have done rather better than that shambles of bogus detailing parked on an orthodox suburban home.
Let me remind members of a couple of things that happened quite recently. First, in 1971, one of our greatest tourist attractions was falling to bits, and no one was concerned to conserve it. A young colleague of mine at a university in Scotland sent off a report to Anthony Greenwood—Lord Greenwood—who moved a motion in the House of Lords to commemorate Robert Owen. The report pointed out that New Lanark could be pulled down almost any day—it had been sold to a scrap merchant. Greenwood mentioned that in the debate on Owen, and the result was a £250,000 bridging grant, which enabled what is now a massive historical accretion to our tourism industry to be saved.
Two years later, what became, in the past year, the greatest terminal success story of London, the opening of St Pancras station as the international terminal, was saved from the rational decision of the British Government to pull it down by an elderly, eccentric poet. In contradistinction to terminal 5 at London airport, St Pancras has been one of the glorious successes of communication.
We should think not just in terms of legislation and intervention to conserve our environment. We should think in terms of stirring things up. Why are there so many well-produced brochures by historical organisations and bureaucracies? Why do we not have a commercial cultural periodical, existing through conventional sales and advertisements, into which such material could contribute as sources of cash, while helping to sustain a debate on the issues that we are discussing? It was through such debate that St Pancras station, for example, was conserved. It is through that sort of mechanism that I hope we can think positively about things that are probably unthinkable at the moment, such as putting a roof back on Linlithgow palace, which was burned down by drunks in the 1745 rising. Why not train up the essential people such as masons and carpenters whom we need to restore such buildings? If we do not do that, conservation will go by the board.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on S3M-1751, in the name of Linda Fabiani, on Historic Scotland and local authorities.
The Minister for Europe, External Affairs and Culture (Linda Fabiani):
SNP
I am pleased to open the debate, which allows me to highlight the many ways in which central and local government are working together to deliver a sustainab...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the announcement of the £8 million to continue the work of the conservation area regeneration scheme, and the key performance targets for planning ...
Ted Brocklebank (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I am a fan of Historic Scotland, although there are aspects of its operation with which I disagree, to which I will return. I continue to believe that the ag...
Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD):
LD
I welcome this rare opportunity to focus on the role of Historic Scotland. At one point, I was concerned about whether there would be a ministerial statement...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
We move to the debate. Speeches should be of six minutes.
Rob Gibson (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
I very much welcome this opportunity to explore the co-operation between Historic Scotland and local authorities, which the minister has enhanced today with ...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome this debate on Historic Scotland and its joint working with local authorities, because we should discuss its role in administering Scotland's histo...
John Farquhar Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD):
LD
I am pleased to take part in a debate during which we have heard about numerous anomalies and difficulties relating to the work of our colleagues in Historic...
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
You alluded to Eilean Donan castle as having been a pile of rocks, but I remind you that it was under your party's Administration that Castle Tioram remained...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
That did not happen under my party's Administration.
John Farquhar Munro:
LD
I do not think that the issue was ever debated seriously in the Scottish Parliament, because it was simply a planning matter between Highland Council and His...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I thank John Farquhar Munro for reminding us that one of Scotland's iconic structures dates from only about 70 years ago, thus depriving us of any historical...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
There is no doubt that the conservation and reuse of buildings must rank highly in terms of sustainability. Ensuring that restoration is sympathetic is a cru...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP):
SNP
I start with a declaration of interest. Like many in the chamber, as a member of a local authority I have been involved in planning issues for a number of ye...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab):
Lab
I declare an interest as a member of Historic Scotland.As others have said, our distinctive environment has been formed by centuries of activity by nature an...
Liam McArthur (Orkney) (LD):
LD
Like Patricia Ferguson and Willie Coffey, I declare an interest as a member of Historic Scotland. As a result of that membership, I have sons who have a heal...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member has one minute left.
Liam McArthur:
LD
In my constituency I know of situations in which there has been a complete failure to communicate properly or to engage with local stakeholders. Although I f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member must conclude now.
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
I am pleased to speak in the debate, which has been very informative. In 2004, during a similar debate, I made a speech that was partially critical of Histor...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I am happy to support Iain Smith's amendment, with its emphasis on effective engagement with local communities in relation to listed buildings. More generall...
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
The most sensible thing that I have heard Malcolm Chisholm say today is that I will not have enough time. He is right: in the eight minutes that are availabl...