Chamber
Plenary, 06 Mar 2008
06 Mar 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Rape and Sexual Offences
We have heard several powerful and thoughtful speeches on what—as several members have said—is a very complex area of law. When we analyse the Law Commission's findings, it becomes clear that it has used its experience and knowledge of the subject to reach a comprehensive set of 62 recommendations.
We have highlighted a number of matters, but we should be well aware of the work that the Justice Committee will have to do to interrogate the 62 recommendations. The committee will, for example, have to interrogate carefully the recommendation that the offence of lewd and libidinous behaviour should be abolished and replaced with a more focused approach in legislation, and it will have to ensure that the law officers and the Cabinet Secretary for Justice provide information on that.
We should recognise the crucial role that the Lord Advocate has played in her current post and previously as the Solicitor General for Scotland in modernising practices in the justice system. That modernisation presents many challenges, as the Lord Advocate knows, but she has taken them on. The announcement by Frank Mulholland last month that the Crown Office will form part of a new dedicated sexual offences team in Lothian is an example of not just talking good practice but doing something to put in place good practice that people throughout Scotland will welcome.
At the heart of Labour Party policy are victims' rights and ensuring that the justice system supports victims of crime by modernising the system in respect of rape and sexual offences. We believe that such modernisation will send out the right message not just to victims but to perpetrators that we are willing to stand up to perpetrators' unacceptable actions and to take the issue forward. Like Gil Paterson, Labour members welcome the work of Rape Crisis Scotland and many other organisations that have played a crucial role in supporting victims over the years.
Pauline McNeill talked about providing clarity in the law. We need to ensure that whatever provisions we pass to provide clarity deal with attitudes to sexual assaults and that appropriate resources are in place so that cases can be prepared coherently and effectively. The issues to which the Law Commission's report refers will require practitioners with experience, expertise and back-up, if the proposed legislation is to have an impact.
In June 2004, the then First Minister, Jack McConnell, said:
"it is important that the … Law Commission review cover all aspects of definition and proof in relation to sexual offences, and … in particular … that we maximise people's confidence not only in our courts—and in the sentences and prosecutions that are available to them—but"—
this is the important point that he made—
"in how the system deals with those who report … offences."—[Official Report, 3 June 2004; c 8896-7.]
Will the cabinet secretary ensure that the necessary resources are in place to implement the legislation that the Parliament passes? Our advocates on the front line must be able to deal with the additional responsibilities that are placed on them. That theme was clear from the Justice Committee's recent visit to the Crown Office. For any changes in the justice system, we must both ensure that additional resources are provided and consider reconfiguring resources that are in place.
Members will note that, in the amendment in Pauline McNeill's name, we have called for more time in the timetable. On reflection, and as other members have said, we have in the past not had the full opportunity to interrogate proposed justice legislation. The Law Commission took more than three years to produce its report and its comprehensive set of recommendations, as I said. It is important to do that work justice by interrogating the proposed legislation effectively. The Parliament will have a job in ensuring that that happens, because extending the timetable has always been difficult, despite members' determination.
I reiterate Pauline McNeill's comments about changing the law in relation to children. We need to be clear that changing the law concerns not just how the legislation is implemented, but the message that such legislation sends to society. I ask the justice team to consider that carefully in producing the bill and to give us every opportunity to interrogate that aspect. We say that in a co-operative and constructive manner to ensure that whatever is passed provides absolute clarity.
Pauline McNeill also talked about clarity being provided to juries. I am not sure whether such clarity will be achieved in full, because of the need for expertise, or whether juries will at all stages be completely aware of the legislation. Let us face it—the report contains 62 recommendations. What can we expect of our juries? We need to be clear about that. However, we should ensure that common knowledge can be made available to juries. Perhaps the cabinet secretary will elaborate on that issue, which can be discussed later.
Margaret Smith made a thoughtful and effective speech—I say to her that Labour members give out positive vibes. She drew a good, thoughtful analogy with society's attitudes towards the stabbing of a young man in the street, which amplified the concerns about society's attitudes towards rape victims. Bill Aitken also drew an effective analogy. However, it is not good enough for us to draw such analogies in the Parliament. It would be better in the long run for us to ensure that we do something about the situation. That is the challenge that the Justice Committee will face.
The Law Commission's recommendations and the draft bill that it has produced mean that the Justice Committee has a great deal of work ahead of it. It will have a job to do in interrogating the draft bill, and Labour members will take that process very seriously. As Marlyn Glen said, the proposals for reforming the law on rape and sexual offences are groundbreaking and we look forward to ensuring that that work is brought forward in the Parliament.
We have highlighted a number of matters, but we should be well aware of the work that the Justice Committee will have to do to interrogate the 62 recommendations. The committee will, for example, have to interrogate carefully the recommendation that the offence of lewd and libidinous behaviour should be abolished and replaced with a more focused approach in legislation, and it will have to ensure that the law officers and the Cabinet Secretary for Justice provide information on that.
We should recognise the crucial role that the Lord Advocate has played in her current post and previously as the Solicitor General for Scotland in modernising practices in the justice system. That modernisation presents many challenges, as the Lord Advocate knows, but she has taken them on. The announcement by Frank Mulholland last month that the Crown Office will form part of a new dedicated sexual offences team in Lothian is an example of not just talking good practice but doing something to put in place good practice that people throughout Scotland will welcome.
At the heart of Labour Party policy are victims' rights and ensuring that the justice system supports victims of crime by modernising the system in respect of rape and sexual offences. We believe that such modernisation will send out the right message not just to victims but to perpetrators that we are willing to stand up to perpetrators' unacceptable actions and to take the issue forward. Like Gil Paterson, Labour members welcome the work of Rape Crisis Scotland and many other organisations that have played a crucial role in supporting victims over the years.
Pauline McNeill talked about providing clarity in the law. We need to ensure that whatever provisions we pass to provide clarity deal with attitudes to sexual assaults and that appropriate resources are in place so that cases can be prepared coherently and effectively. The issues to which the Law Commission's report refers will require practitioners with experience, expertise and back-up, if the proposed legislation is to have an impact.
In June 2004, the then First Minister, Jack McConnell, said:
"it is important that the … Law Commission review cover all aspects of definition and proof in relation to sexual offences, and … in particular … that we maximise people's confidence not only in our courts—and in the sentences and prosecutions that are available to them—but"—
this is the important point that he made—
"in how the system deals with those who report … offences."—[Official Report, 3 June 2004; c 8896-7.]
Will the cabinet secretary ensure that the necessary resources are in place to implement the legislation that the Parliament passes? Our advocates on the front line must be able to deal with the additional responsibilities that are placed on them. That theme was clear from the Justice Committee's recent visit to the Crown Office. For any changes in the justice system, we must both ensure that additional resources are provided and consider reconfiguring resources that are in place.
Members will note that, in the amendment in Pauline McNeill's name, we have called for more time in the timetable. On reflection, and as other members have said, we have in the past not had the full opportunity to interrogate proposed justice legislation. The Law Commission took more than three years to produce its report and its comprehensive set of recommendations, as I said. It is important to do that work justice by interrogating the proposed legislation effectively. The Parliament will have a job in ensuring that that happens, because extending the timetable has always been difficult, despite members' determination.
I reiterate Pauline McNeill's comments about changing the law in relation to children. We need to be clear that changing the law concerns not just how the legislation is implemented, but the message that such legislation sends to society. I ask the justice team to consider that carefully in producing the bill and to give us every opportunity to interrogate that aspect. We say that in a co-operative and constructive manner to ensure that whatever is passed provides absolute clarity.
Pauline McNeill also talked about clarity being provided to juries. I am not sure whether such clarity will be achieved in full, because of the need for expertise, or whether juries will at all stages be completely aware of the legislation. Let us face it—the report contains 62 recommendations. What can we expect of our juries? We need to be clear about that. However, we should ensure that common knowledge can be made available to juries. Perhaps the cabinet secretary will elaborate on that issue, which can be discussed later.
Margaret Smith made a thoughtful and effective speech—I say to her that Labour members give out positive vibes. She drew a good, thoughtful analogy with society's attitudes towards the stabbing of a young man in the street, which amplified the concerns about society's attitudes towards rape victims. Bill Aitken also drew an effective analogy. However, it is not good enough for us to draw such analogies in the Parliament. It would be better in the long run for us to ensure that we do something about the situation. That is the challenge that the Justice Committee will face.
The Law Commission's recommendations and the draft bill that it has produced mean that the Justice Committee has a great deal of work ahead of it. It will have a job to do in interrogating the draft bill, and Labour members will take that process very seriously. As Marlyn Glen said, the proposals for reforming the law on rape and sexual offences are groundbreaking and we look forward to ensuring that that work is brought forward in the Parliament.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-1490, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on the Scottish Law Commission's report on rape and sexual offences.
The Lord Advocate (Elish Angiolini):
The Parliament will be aware that the First Minister announced last year that the Scottish Government will bring forward legislation in the light of the Scot...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab):
Lab
Will the Lord Advocate take an intervention on that point?
The Lord Advocate:
I have a great deal to say. I will take the member's point later.The Scottish Law Commission's proposals seek to challenge existing norms by creating a great...
Elaine Smith:
Lab
I apologise—I have to attend a meeting and so I cannot contribute to the debate.Does the Lord Advocate agree that the rape of women by men is an act of viole...
The Lord Advocate:
The answer to the first question is clear. Sexual offending tends to be the exploitation of power. It is about the abuse of power in relation to the victims,...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
I will consider that while you continue, if I may.
The Lord Advocate:
On Ms Smith's point about those who have been trafficked, in circumstances where someone has been abducted and there is clear evidence that there is an absen...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
Further to that point—
The Lord Advocate:
I will take Ms MacDonald's point later.The commission's proposal is important and the Parliament must consider it with great care.Equally important is the co...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
Labour welcomes the long-awaited report from the Scottish Law Commission on the reform of rape and sexual offences law. The report is good and we thank the c...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
I welcome the debate, which is likely to continue for some months and, indeed, years, because we must get this particular legislation right. I also welcome t...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I welcome the Scottish Law Commission's final report on rape and other sexual offences and the consultation on its findings. The proposed legislation and the...
Shirley-Anne Somerville (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome the final report from the Scottish Law Commission and the commitment from the Scottish Government to bring about much-needed reform of the law on r...
Marlyn Glen (North East Scotland) (Lab):
Lab
I am pleased to take part in this debate on the Scottish Law Commission's report on rape and sexual offences. The report and the first-ever systematic review...
Gil Paterson (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
First, I declare an interest as a board member of Central Scotland Rape Crisis and Sexual Abuse Centre. I pay tribute to the Parliament's continuing work on ...
Bill Aitken:
Con
I am well aware of the member's close interest in such matters, but if he checked the figures he would learn that the conviction rate for the number of cases...
Gil Paterson:
SNP
Although I bow to the figure supplied by Bill Aitken, it does not alter what I will say. However, I will check the figures again.No right-thinking person, wh...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
I join the debate because I want clarification on only one point that was reported in the newspapers during the week. The Lord Advocate will be pleased to kn...
Gil Paterson:
SNP
Margo MacDonald is perhaps suggesting that it would be difficult to say that men who pay for sex unknowingly rape a person. However, I hope that the member a...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
I thank the member for that information, of which I am aware—I abhor that situation as much as the member does. However, the same treatment can be meted out ...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I support Pauline McNeill's amendment and all that she said. I welcome the consultation on the draft bill, which is published at the end of the Scottish Law ...
Nigel Don (North East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Members will forgive me for saying again that as I am speaking late in the debate I will resist the temptation to repeat what others have said and instead tr...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
This is the third time in as many weeks that I have spoken in Parliament on a complex and emotive issue. I welcome the debate, which presents an opportunity ...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
Has the member considered that the attitudes of juries might determine the matter about which he asks?
Mike Pringle:
LD
I do not doubt that that is part of the problem and I will return to that issue. However, I maintain that analysis should be done in that area.Progress has b...
John Lamont (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con):
Con
Today's debate has been very interesting and informative, and the wider debate, particularly on the law of rape, has also been very well informed. I also wel...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
I will just raise an intriguing point. If the way in which the style of dress can be provocative is not to contribute to being attacked—I agree that that is ...
John Lamont:
Con
My point is that society needs to be much more widely aware of the matter. People need to understand that simply wearing a certain piece of clothing does not...
Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab):
Lab
We have heard several powerful and thoughtful speeches on what—as several members have said—is a very complex area of law. When we analyse the Law Commission...