Chamber
Plenary, 06 Mar 2008
06 Mar 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Rape and Sexual Offences
Members will forgive me for saying again that as I am speaking late in the debate I will resist the temptation to repeat what others have said and instead try to address, or expand on, issues that have not been covered as they might have been.
I will make two points. The first, fundamental, point, which I do not think has been mentioned, is that we should be trying to create a legal framework that will minimise the number of violations—the number of acts that we will subsequently decide are offences. We need to be careful when we talk about maximising the number of reports of offences and maximising convictions, although such outcomes are important and will derive from the legal framework that we create. We must bear it in mind that we need a society—and a legal framework within which society operates—in which the number of violations of a sexual nature is minimised.
I know that this cannot happen, but in Utopia we would develop a legal system in which there were no violations and therefore no prosecutions or convictions. We could reduce offending by moving the goalposts; for example, we could quickly reduce the number of speeding offences on our roads, not by eliminating the speed limit but by increasing it to 250mph. Shifting the goalposts does not help, however. If we want to slow people down we must ensure that the speed limit that we set is enforced and that people understand why it exists.
The appropriate legal framework will minimise the number of violations and it will maximise the tendency for victims to report offences and minimise the procedural impediments to achieving justice. It might help our thinking on the matter if we kept in mind that hierarchy.
The Scottish Law Commission's report contains a radical proposal, which would in effect change the balance of proof, so that the law required the accused to demonstrate consent instead of requiring the defendant to prove the absence of consent. I accept that that is a slight overstatement of the case and I am not trying to be too legalistic, but in effect the commission suggests that consent needs to be demonstrated.
My second point is about the definition of consent. The proposed term, "free agreement", does not offer the right way forward. Members will realise that I did my training on the other side of Hadrian's wall. I can still pretty much recite section 1 of the Theft Act 1968, which says:
"A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it".
That definition of theft served pretty well until some folk nicked a painting from a church and subsequently managed to demonstrate to the court that they were only borrowing it. However, the definition would be useful if we had to teach our children the law of theft. Mercifully, we do not have to do so, because by and large people understand the law of theft, so we do not use the legal definition to teach children.
I mention that matter because society must find a way of teaching young people what is and is not sexually acceptable. I do not in any way suggest that such an approach will help in the dreadful cases of serial offenders who have no interest in being taught anything—we know about those people, so that is not my point. However, if we—as parents, lawyers and, in particular, as teachers—are to guide our youngsters and teenagers to an understanding of what is acceptable and, therefore, of what the law on sexual offences says, it would be useful to have a working definition of consent that had value in that context.
The alternative definition of consent that the commission proposed is:
"positive co-operation in act or attitude pursuant to an exercise of free will, involving persons acting freely and voluntarily and with knowledge of the nature of the act in question".
Such a definition might make sense to members and I am sure that it makes sense to lawyers, but I respectfully suggest that it has no street credibility. The definition would not be much use to teachers or parents and would need to be refined. The important point is that it would not be much use to juries, either.
We need a framework of law that minimises the tendency for violations, maximises the tendency to report offences and minimises the impediments to achieving justice in court. To achieve those outcomes the law must be clear, enforceable and—crucially—well understood by the general public.
I will make two points. The first, fundamental, point, which I do not think has been mentioned, is that we should be trying to create a legal framework that will minimise the number of violations—the number of acts that we will subsequently decide are offences. We need to be careful when we talk about maximising the number of reports of offences and maximising convictions, although such outcomes are important and will derive from the legal framework that we create. We must bear it in mind that we need a society—and a legal framework within which society operates—in which the number of violations of a sexual nature is minimised.
I know that this cannot happen, but in Utopia we would develop a legal system in which there were no violations and therefore no prosecutions or convictions. We could reduce offending by moving the goalposts; for example, we could quickly reduce the number of speeding offences on our roads, not by eliminating the speed limit but by increasing it to 250mph. Shifting the goalposts does not help, however. If we want to slow people down we must ensure that the speed limit that we set is enforced and that people understand why it exists.
The appropriate legal framework will minimise the number of violations and it will maximise the tendency for victims to report offences and minimise the procedural impediments to achieving justice. It might help our thinking on the matter if we kept in mind that hierarchy.
The Scottish Law Commission's report contains a radical proposal, which would in effect change the balance of proof, so that the law required the accused to demonstrate consent instead of requiring the defendant to prove the absence of consent. I accept that that is a slight overstatement of the case and I am not trying to be too legalistic, but in effect the commission suggests that consent needs to be demonstrated.
My second point is about the definition of consent. The proposed term, "free agreement", does not offer the right way forward. Members will realise that I did my training on the other side of Hadrian's wall. I can still pretty much recite section 1 of the Theft Act 1968, which says:
"A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it".
That definition of theft served pretty well until some folk nicked a painting from a church and subsequently managed to demonstrate to the court that they were only borrowing it. However, the definition would be useful if we had to teach our children the law of theft. Mercifully, we do not have to do so, because by and large people understand the law of theft, so we do not use the legal definition to teach children.
I mention that matter because society must find a way of teaching young people what is and is not sexually acceptable. I do not in any way suggest that such an approach will help in the dreadful cases of serial offenders who have no interest in being taught anything—we know about those people, so that is not my point. However, if we—as parents, lawyers and, in particular, as teachers—are to guide our youngsters and teenagers to an understanding of what is acceptable and, therefore, of what the law on sexual offences says, it would be useful to have a working definition of consent that had value in that context.
The alternative definition of consent that the commission proposed is:
"positive co-operation in act or attitude pursuant to an exercise of free will, involving persons acting freely and voluntarily and with knowledge of the nature of the act in question".
Such a definition might make sense to members and I am sure that it makes sense to lawyers, but I respectfully suggest that it has no street credibility. The definition would not be much use to teachers or parents and would need to be refined. The important point is that it would not be much use to juries, either.
We need a framework of law that minimises the tendency for violations, maximises the tendency to report offences and minimises the impediments to achieving justice in court. To achieve those outcomes the law must be clear, enforceable and—crucially—well understood by the general public.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-1490, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on the Scottish Law Commission's report on rape and sexual offences.
The Lord Advocate (Elish Angiolini):
The Parliament will be aware that the First Minister announced last year that the Scottish Government will bring forward legislation in the light of the Scot...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab):
Lab
Will the Lord Advocate take an intervention on that point?
The Lord Advocate:
I have a great deal to say. I will take the member's point later.The Scottish Law Commission's proposals seek to challenge existing norms by creating a great...
Elaine Smith:
Lab
I apologise—I have to attend a meeting and so I cannot contribute to the debate.Does the Lord Advocate agree that the rape of women by men is an act of viole...
The Lord Advocate:
The answer to the first question is clear. Sexual offending tends to be the exploitation of power. It is about the abuse of power in relation to the victims,...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
I will consider that while you continue, if I may.
The Lord Advocate:
On Ms Smith's point about those who have been trafficked, in circumstances where someone has been abducted and there is clear evidence that there is an absen...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
Further to that point—
The Lord Advocate:
I will take Ms MacDonald's point later.The commission's proposal is important and the Parliament must consider it with great care.Equally important is the co...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
Labour welcomes the long-awaited report from the Scottish Law Commission on the reform of rape and sexual offences law. The report is good and we thank the c...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
I welcome the debate, which is likely to continue for some months and, indeed, years, because we must get this particular legislation right. I also welcome t...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I welcome the Scottish Law Commission's final report on rape and other sexual offences and the consultation on its findings. The proposed legislation and the...
Shirley-Anne Somerville (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome the final report from the Scottish Law Commission and the commitment from the Scottish Government to bring about much-needed reform of the law on r...
Marlyn Glen (North East Scotland) (Lab):
Lab
I am pleased to take part in this debate on the Scottish Law Commission's report on rape and sexual offences. The report and the first-ever systematic review...
Gil Paterson (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
First, I declare an interest as a board member of Central Scotland Rape Crisis and Sexual Abuse Centre. I pay tribute to the Parliament's continuing work on ...
Bill Aitken:
Con
I am well aware of the member's close interest in such matters, but if he checked the figures he would learn that the conviction rate for the number of cases...
Gil Paterson:
SNP
Although I bow to the figure supplied by Bill Aitken, it does not alter what I will say. However, I will check the figures again.No right-thinking person, wh...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
I join the debate because I want clarification on only one point that was reported in the newspapers during the week. The Lord Advocate will be pleased to kn...
Gil Paterson:
SNP
Margo MacDonald is perhaps suggesting that it would be difficult to say that men who pay for sex unknowingly rape a person. However, I hope that the member a...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
I thank the member for that information, of which I am aware—I abhor that situation as much as the member does. However, the same treatment can be meted out ...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I support Pauline McNeill's amendment and all that she said. I welcome the consultation on the draft bill, which is published at the end of the Scottish Law ...
Nigel Don (North East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Members will forgive me for saying again that as I am speaking late in the debate I will resist the temptation to repeat what others have said and instead tr...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
This is the third time in as many weeks that I have spoken in Parliament on a complex and emotive issue. I welcome the debate, which presents an opportunity ...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
Has the member considered that the attitudes of juries might determine the matter about which he asks?
Mike Pringle:
LD
I do not doubt that that is part of the problem and I will return to that issue. However, I maintain that analysis should be done in that area.Progress has b...
John Lamont (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con):
Con
Today's debate has been very interesting and informative, and the wider debate, particularly on the law of rape, has also been very well informed. I also wel...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
I will just raise an intriguing point. If the way in which the style of dress can be provocative is not to contribute to being attacked—I agree that that is ...
John Lamont:
Con
My point is that society needs to be much more widely aware of the matter. People need to understand that simply wearing a certain piece of clothing does not...
Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab):
Lab
We have heard several powerful and thoughtful speeches on what—as several members have said—is a very complex area of law. When we analyse the Law Commission...