Chamber
Plenary, 17 Jan 2008
17 Jan 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Firearms
I suggest that we should distinguish clearly between three kinds of weapons: the first are air-guns, the second I will call handguns, and an adequate description of the third would be shotguns.
I liked Pauline McNeill's phrase: a "presumption against" possession. That would be a good way in which to tackle the problem of guns. We can do without them—people who have good reason for needing them could be subject to licence, but everyone else should be unable to get them. That would be the first step on the path.
I listened to the previous speeches and have no intention of repeating what was said. Seven million air-guns are thought to be in circulation in the UK and I am told that half a million of them are in Scotland, which seems a reasonable assumption. Clearly, the numbers are far too high.
Air-guns are not toys. A majority of the offences involving air weapons are attributed to people under the age of 21, and many of those are attributed to people under the age of 15, which suggests that we have no control over where these weapons are going. As a youngster under the age of 15, I fired an air-gun in the back yard of a friend's home, but I am not sure that we were under a great deal of supervision at the time. It occurred to me that it was rather obvious that I should not point it at people, although that seems to escape others.
I come to the real point, which we all know. If we have dangerous things, occasionally they will get into the wrong hands and occasionally those wrong hands will do something very silly with them. Every now and again, such a silly event will have serious consequences. We should not be surprised if someone is killed by an air rifle every now and again, sad though the event must be. If air guns are out there, they will be abused—every now and then, things will go wrong and someone will get seriously hurt. The only solution is to ensure that air-guns are simply not out there, other than in responsible hands. I note in passing that air-guns are also used to attack animals. That is quite sickening behaviour that I do not understand. The same thing applies: if air-guns are not out there, the animals will be that bit safer.
I turn to handguns, which by and large have no place in civilised society, outside gun clubs. I applaud Bill Aitken's comment that criminals do not worry about the paperwork. We need to keep that thought firmly in mind in any licensing regime.
We also need to be careful not to outlaw everything that may be dangerous. Some of my friends are archers; once upon a time, the bow and arrow was the principal weapon of long-range attack. Should we ban motor racing on the ground that it is plainly dangerous? Come to think of it, we should probably not climb Munros. There is a place for everything and everything in its place.
I turn to the statistics on incidents of handgun use. Principally, such usage happens in our major cities, particularly in the Strathclyde, Lothian and Borders and Tayside police areas. It may surprise some people that not many incidents have happened in the Grampian Police area, and therefore not in Aberdeen. I commend Grampian Police for its approach and I would illuminate the force's approach. Police in Aberdeen have concluded that, although they are fortunate that there are not many guns around, that is unlikely to remain the case. The force notes that the use of handguns is associated in large part with drug supply and by gangs to defend their territory, and has no intention of letting anything like that happen in Aberdeen.
Officers from Grampian Police have visited colleagues in the West Midlands and London to learn from them. According to Detective Superintendent Alan Smith, the plan is
"to create a hostile and unproductive environment for England-based drug dealing syndicates to operate in."
Such an attitude is very commendable and is clearly appropriate for an environment in which guns are not yet available. One must commend the force's efforts and encourage police in other cities to find other approaches to reducing gun crime, which seems to be associated largely with criminal gangs.
I endorse the presumption that guns should not be available, except where there is demonstrable need. I also share the widely expressed view that it does not matter how we tidy up the mess that is Scottish law on this issue. If Westminster wants to do so, that is all well and good—and the sooner, the better, please. I welcome all parties' support in achieving that aim.
I liked Pauline McNeill's phrase: a "presumption against" possession. That would be a good way in which to tackle the problem of guns. We can do without them—people who have good reason for needing them could be subject to licence, but everyone else should be unable to get them. That would be the first step on the path.
I listened to the previous speeches and have no intention of repeating what was said. Seven million air-guns are thought to be in circulation in the UK and I am told that half a million of them are in Scotland, which seems a reasonable assumption. Clearly, the numbers are far too high.
Air-guns are not toys. A majority of the offences involving air weapons are attributed to people under the age of 21, and many of those are attributed to people under the age of 15, which suggests that we have no control over where these weapons are going. As a youngster under the age of 15, I fired an air-gun in the back yard of a friend's home, but I am not sure that we were under a great deal of supervision at the time. It occurred to me that it was rather obvious that I should not point it at people, although that seems to escape others.
I come to the real point, which we all know. If we have dangerous things, occasionally they will get into the wrong hands and occasionally those wrong hands will do something very silly with them. Every now and again, such a silly event will have serious consequences. We should not be surprised if someone is killed by an air rifle every now and again, sad though the event must be. If air guns are out there, they will be abused—every now and then, things will go wrong and someone will get seriously hurt. The only solution is to ensure that air-guns are simply not out there, other than in responsible hands. I note in passing that air-guns are also used to attack animals. That is quite sickening behaviour that I do not understand. The same thing applies: if air-guns are not out there, the animals will be that bit safer.
I turn to handguns, which by and large have no place in civilised society, outside gun clubs. I applaud Bill Aitken's comment that criminals do not worry about the paperwork. We need to keep that thought firmly in mind in any licensing regime.
We also need to be careful not to outlaw everything that may be dangerous. Some of my friends are archers; once upon a time, the bow and arrow was the principal weapon of long-range attack. Should we ban motor racing on the ground that it is plainly dangerous? Come to think of it, we should probably not climb Munros. There is a place for everything and everything in its place.
I turn to the statistics on incidents of handgun use. Principally, such usage happens in our major cities, particularly in the Strathclyde, Lothian and Borders and Tayside police areas. It may surprise some people that not many incidents have happened in the Grampian Police area, and therefore not in Aberdeen. I commend Grampian Police for its approach and I would illuminate the force's approach. Police in Aberdeen have concluded that, although they are fortunate that there are not many guns around, that is unlikely to remain the case. The force notes that the use of handguns is associated in large part with drug supply and by gangs to defend their territory, and has no intention of letting anything like that happen in Aberdeen.
Officers from Grampian Police have visited colleagues in the West Midlands and London to learn from them. According to Detective Superintendent Alan Smith, the plan is
"to create a hostile and unproductive environment for England-based drug dealing syndicates to operate in."
Such an attitude is very commendable and is clearly appropriate for an environment in which guns are not yet available. One must commend the force's efforts and encourage police in other cities to find other approaches to reducing gun crime, which seems to be associated largely with criminal gangs.
I endorse the presumption that guns should not be available, except where there is demonstrable need. I also share the widely expressed view that it does not matter how we tidy up the mess that is Scottish law on this issue. If Westminster wants to do so, that is all well and good—and the sooner, the better, please. I welcome all parties' support in achieving that aim.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-1153, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on firearms.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
This debate is long overdue. The misuse of firearms, particularly air weapons, remains a major problem in our communities. There is a distinct problem in Sco...
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab):
Lab
I presume that the suggestion of hosting a summit has been well thought out and is not just a political stunt. If that is the case, will the minister explain...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
We all know that various matters relating to the Post Office are reserved to Westminster, and they may be involved. I assure Mr Henry that we are dealing wit...
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):
Lab
I am sure that members are glad that we are dealing with the issue seriously and looking to tackle the problems. My question extends the debate from air-guns...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
Off the top of my head, I do not know. I presume that we might be able to do something through a licensing regime. I took a call on the point from the Greeno...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
Does the cabinet secretary suggest that the current differentiation between the system for regulating firearms and that for shotguns is likely to end and tha...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
We are having a summit to involve all those who have an interest—whether through sport or farming, or as police. We must have a system that is fit for purpos...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
The strict control of firearms is essential if the public are to be kept safe from violence that involves guns. This afternoon, we will debate how to win the...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
Labour's amendment refers to"retaining consistency across all parts of the United Kingdom".There seems to be inconsistency in that Northern Ireland has a sep...
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
The cabinet secretary is being a wee bit mischievous, as the character of the problem in Northern Ireland is clearly different. There has been generous suppo...
The Minister for Community Safety (Fergus Ewing):
SNP
A central question is whether all members agree that air-guns should be licensed. Does the Labour Party in Scotland support that position?
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
I will talk about the Labour Party's position and enlighten the member on that matter.We need to look in greater detail at the workability of any further res...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
The cabinet secretary was correct in stating that this is a serious issue that we must treat with the utmost seriousness. Much of what he said today was perf...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
We accept the point that the law in itself is never a total solution to any problem. That applies in this case. However, does Bill Aitken accept—given that t...
Bill Aitken:
Con
All such ideas have varying degrees of merit. Once the appropriate inquiries have been carried out and consultations taken place, there could be a case for l...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
I agree with the minister that there is increasing public concern about gun crime. In 2006-07, the Scottish police recorded 1,245 offences in which it was al...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Mike Pringle argues that legislation in Scotland that did not exist throughout the UK would be unenforceable. We would prefer UK-wide legislation, but if tha...
Mike Pringle:
LD
That is probably right, but I will come on to the considerable number of measures that have been introduced recently—we should give them time to bed in. If t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
We move to the open debate on the motion.
Nigel Don (North East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I suggest that we should distinguish clearly between three kinds of weapons: the first are air-guns, the second I will call handguns, and an adequate descrip...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
I rise in support of my colleague Pauline McNeill's amendment.Obviously, the safety of communities throughout Scotland is the most important subject that Par...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Pauline McNeill said that anyone who wants an air-gun should be able to demonstrate the purpose for which it is required. Does Bill Butler agree with us that...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
You are in your final minute, Mr Butler.
Bill Butler:
Lab
We should have a system that operates across the UK and which militates against—Interruption. As Duncan McNeil said from a sedentary position, criminals do n...
Bill Wilson (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
No one can deny that we have a problem with gun crime in Scotland. I will give two examples from the west of Scotland to follow the many cases that have alre...
Alex Johnstone:
Con
Will the member attempt to deal with the irony—some people might call it an enigma—that in respect of the pools of illegally held firearms and legally held f...
Bill Wilson:
SNP
I do not accept the member's point and I will explain why. He was confused about the fundamental difference that exists between air-guns and firearms.It is o...
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab):
Lab
At a stroke, Bill Wilson has managed to destroy the efforts of Kenny MacAskill to develop a constructive argument about dealing with something on the basis o...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I made it quite clear that, as a member of the SNP, I think that this Parliament should legislate. The member is talking about 2005, when I was referring to ...