Chamber
Plenary, 09 Jan 2008
09 Jan 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Serious Organised Crime
I asked to speak in this debate even though the subject is outwith my shadow portfolio, because it means so much to people in my constituency. The debate gives me an opportunity to relate some of the serious experiences that I have heard about. I am grateful for that opportunity.
As has been widely acknowledged, serious crime matters. It profoundly affects the quality of life of many Scots. Unless the issues are adequately addressed, we cannot talk seriously about the regeneration of places such as the east end of Glasgow—as we did earlier during the statement on sportscotland—and we cannot talk about one Scotland. We cannot talk about real cohesion or real opportunity when too many of our fellow citizens suffer profoundly in the way that we have heard.
I like to think of myself as being quite streetwise. I grew up in the east end of Glasgow in a traditional working class home and I like to think that I have seen a bit of life. However, I was not prepared for what I was to face when I became an MSP. I was not prepared for the scale of this problem and how it affects people.
It can be difficult to represent constituencies in the east end of Glasgow, because—quite properly—we want to talk about the many strengths of the communities and the opportunities within them. My constituency has a number of very prosperous communities—in fact, Tam McGraw himself lived in one of them. However, on too many occasions I have had to comfort a grieving mother or father—grieving over the unnecessary and violent death of their child. It is an appalling experience.
I also have experience of listening to constituents who are desperate about the scale of violence in their communities. They have expressed deep anguish about how a child can be raised in such circumstances. Families have approached me, terrified and desperate to remain anonymous. They have described what it is like to live beside a family that is clearly engaged in organised crime. Families have been intimidated, and some have been burned out of their houses for not complying absolutely with the rules of the streets. Young people are regularly and systematically attacked on those streets. The most brutal thing of all is perhaps some people's sense of impunity. They believe that they operate above the law, and they seem to get away with it. As Bill Aitken said, it is galling for other people to see the clear and ostentatious wealth of such people on their streets. Those other people cannot understand that, and they ask us to help.
We have all raised such matters relentlessly with the police. The police know who the criminals are and are determined to deal with them. The police are our friends in dealing with the criminals; I appreciate the efforts of the police and I share their outrage and disgust.
Like others, I pay tribute to the dedicated work of Graeme Pearson. He knows the areas well and has worked very effectively. He has pursued organised villains who have seemed to escape justice, and he has brought them to justice. However, we have to be honest—not enough such people have been brought to justice. We have to do much more to target and arrest people who, through devious and violent means, exploit the most vulnerable people in our societies.
In my conversations with the police, one thing that came across repeatedly was the need to maintain and then increase the resources spent on surveillance. I will want to pursue that issue with the appropriate ministers and law officers. Surveillance is critical. As other members have said, as soon as we develop a response to organised crime, the criminals develop other crimes by using their intelligence and their considerable resources. We have to be constantly on our guard.
I also wish to discuss antisocial behaviour. I listened to Kenny MacAskill earlier and I agree, of course, that prevention is always the best policy when possible. We will always want to divert young people from criminal activity. Many people are involved in the margins of serious crime; we can reach out to those people and pull them away.
Organised criminals use antisocial behaviour as part of their strategy of fear. They use and encourage gang fighting in order to create a culture of fear and intimidation and to create what are, in effect, no-go areas. People are either on the side of the network of organised crime and its foot soldiers, or they have to be silent observers. Organised criminals begin with certain targeted disorder. They recruit from crimes and ensure that antisocial behaviour on their streets is allowed to go on unchecked. I accept that antisocial behaviour is only one dimension of the issue of serious organised crime, but if we tackle it we will make the lives of organised criminals more difficult and will at least take one weapon away from them.
Bill Aitken properly recognised the strong commitment in the past to tackling serious organised crime. I pay tribute to Cathy Jamieson and the many others who have worked on that. However, it is a great sorrow to me that Tam McGraw's so-called empire was not brought to its knees before he died. I hope that we can galvanise our efforts as a result of the debate to ensure that the Parliament is relevant to all the people we seek to represent, and that we truly understand the day-to-day reality and violence that some people have to live with. We must ensure that our police are fully equipped, and that organised crime faces the full force of the law. We must say to our people with all sincerity and belief that no one in Scotland is above the law.
As has been widely acknowledged, serious crime matters. It profoundly affects the quality of life of many Scots. Unless the issues are adequately addressed, we cannot talk seriously about the regeneration of places such as the east end of Glasgow—as we did earlier during the statement on sportscotland—and we cannot talk about one Scotland. We cannot talk about real cohesion or real opportunity when too many of our fellow citizens suffer profoundly in the way that we have heard.
I like to think of myself as being quite streetwise. I grew up in the east end of Glasgow in a traditional working class home and I like to think that I have seen a bit of life. However, I was not prepared for what I was to face when I became an MSP. I was not prepared for the scale of this problem and how it affects people.
It can be difficult to represent constituencies in the east end of Glasgow, because—quite properly—we want to talk about the many strengths of the communities and the opportunities within them. My constituency has a number of very prosperous communities—in fact, Tam McGraw himself lived in one of them. However, on too many occasions I have had to comfort a grieving mother or father—grieving over the unnecessary and violent death of their child. It is an appalling experience.
I also have experience of listening to constituents who are desperate about the scale of violence in their communities. They have expressed deep anguish about how a child can be raised in such circumstances. Families have approached me, terrified and desperate to remain anonymous. They have described what it is like to live beside a family that is clearly engaged in organised crime. Families have been intimidated, and some have been burned out of their houses for not complying absolutely with the rules of the streets. Young people are regularly and systematically attacked on those streets. The most brutal thing of all is perhaps some people's sense of impunity. They believe that they operate above the law, and they seem to get away with it. As Bill Aitken said, it is galling for other people to see the clear and ostentatious wealth of such people on their streets. Those other people cannot understand that, and they ask us to help.
We have all raised such matters relentlessly with the police. The police know who the criminals are and are determined to deal with them. The police are our friends in dealing with the criminals; I appreciate the efforts of the police and I share their outrage and disgust.
Like others, I pay tribute to the dedicated work of Graeme Pearson. He knows the areas well and has worked very effectively. He has pursued organised villains who have seemed to escape justice, and he has brought them to justice. However, we have to be honest—not enough such people have been brought to justice. We have to do much more to target and arrest people who, through devious and violent means, exploit the most vulnerable people in our societies.
In my conversations with the police, one thing that came across repeatedly was the need to maintain and then increase the resources spent on surveillance. I will want to pursue that issue with the appropriate ministers and law officers. Surveillance is critical. As other members have said, as soon as we develop a response to organised crime, the criminals develop other crimes by using their intelligence and their considerable resources. We have to be constantly on our guard.
I also wish to discuss antisocial behaviour. I listened to Kenny MacAskill earlier and I agree, of course, that prevention is always the best policy when possible. We will always want to divert young people from criminal activity. Many people are involved in the margins of serious crime; we can reach out to those people and pull them away.
Organised criminals use antisocial behaviour as part of their strategy of fear. They use and encourage gang fighting in order to create a culture of fear and intimidation and to create what are, in effect, no-go areas. People are either on the side of the network of organised crime and its foot soldiers, or they have to be silent observers. Organised criminals begin with certain targeted disorder. They recruit from crimes and ensure that antisocial behaviour on their streets is allowed to go on unchecked. I accept that antisocial behaviour is only one dimension of the issue of serious organised crime, but if we tackle it we will make the lives of organised criminals more difficult and will at least take one weapon away from them.
Bill Aitken properly recognised the strong commitment in the past to tackling serious organised crime. I pay tribute to Cathy Jamieson and the many others who have worked on that. However, it is a great sorrow to me that Tam McGraw's so-called empire was not brought to its knees before he died. I hope that we can galvanise our efforts as a result of the debate to ensure that the Parliament is relevant to all the people we seek to represent, and that we truly understand the day-to-day reality and violence that some people have to live with. We must ensure that our police are fully equipped, and that organised crime faces the full force of the law. We must say to our people with all sincerity and belief that no one in Scotland is above the law.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-1101, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on serious organised crime.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
I welcome this opportunity to debate one of the major threats facing Scotland today: serious organised crime. Organised crime impacts on us all. For too long...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
In his letter to the Home Secretary, has the minister referred to the possibility of Scotland retaining all the money that it gets under the 2002 act? I unde...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
My understanding is that the figure is 50 per cent above £17 million per annum. We are obviously happy to discuss the matter. That particular aspect was not ...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
I very much appreciate what the minister has just said, but what will be done differently to persuade young people that there is another way—other than joini...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
The member and I have touched on such matters at hustings and on other occasions. She is aware that some matters are outwith the justice department's silo. T...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
On the effectiveness of Europol in helping to prevent crime in Scotland, is the minister satisfied that the intelligence that he receives from Europol regard...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I believe so. I met the director general of Europol. I am not aware of any evidence from police officers or organisations in Scotland that appropriate inform...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
I am pleased to see that, in 2008, our weekly discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Justice will continue. I welcome this debate on serious organised cr...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
The member referred to long sentences for serious criminals. Does she see that being balanced by shorter sentences for less serious crimes?
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
I am clear that, in relation to serious organised crime, we need long sentences. My point is that showing criminals that we can hurt them by stripping them o...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I welcome the debate. As Pauline McNeill said, this is the first week back, so we have the first justice debate, and another is due next week. I also welcome...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
I am tempted to say that if Margaret Smith comes to some harm in the next few days, we will know who is responsible.In his opening remarks, the Cabinet Secre...
Mike Pringle:
LD
One problem is that often the Mercedes or house is owned not by the drug dealer but by his wife or son. What do we do about that? How do we address that prob...
Bill Aitken:
Con
Mr Pringle highlights what is undoubtedly a real problem, but at some stage the house will have been part of a transaction. In many instances, the house will...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
You should begin to wind up now.
Bill Aitken:
Con
The Mr Bigs of the criminal world need to know that we are after their houses—whether in Spain or in posh areas of Glasgow—and that we are after their cars.I...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
We move to the open debate. Speeches should be of around six minutes.
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
Serious organised crime is one of the most difficult issues before our Parliament because it goes right to the basis of our civil society.I begin by going ba...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
The cabinet secretary will remember that, in a wide-ranging contribution to the first major debate on justice matters after last year's election, he acknowle...
Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I start by saying that I am rather disappointed in the Lib Dem amendment. It does them no favours and it belittles the debate, which is about a very serious ...
Margaret Smith:
LD
In my speech I sought to remind Sandra White and others that in the fight against serious organised crime there is a role not only for specialists but for th...
Sandra White:
SNP
I do not want to know about the Liberal Democrats' manifesto commitments, some of which certainly have not been taken forward. That said, I take the member's...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I support the motion and the amendments. I have no difficulty whatsoever in supporting Margaret Smith's amendment. Indeed, I am very pleased with her amendme...
Stuart McMillan (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome the debate. I also welcome the Scottish Government's creation of the serious organised crime task force.As each member who has spoken thus far has ...
Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab):
Lab
I asked to speak in this debate even though the subject is outwith my shadow portfolio, because it means so much to people in my constituency. The debate giv...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I have great pleasure in speaking in the debate because, unlike the subjects of other debates, serious organised crime in Scotland is an issue that resonates...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
The debate has been vital in maintaining the dialogue between elected representatives that is required to tackle an adaptive and constantly evolving problem....
John Lamont (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con):
Con
The debate has been useful as it has allowed us to consider the issues connected with serious crime and how we might tackle it. There is much in the Governme...
Bill Butler:
Lab
Will the member give way on that point?