Chamber
Plenary, 15 Nov 2007
15 Nov 2007 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Scottish Legal Services Market
I am sure that many members in the chamber are as delighted as I am at being dragooned into being here this morning.
Scotland has a unique situation regarding law and the legal profession, and for that reason the large-scale liberalisation of the English legal services market is not really appropriate for Scotland. The focus on large cities and dense urban areas in England does not really apply to Scotland's geography and small-town communities, as has been highlighted by the cabinet secretary this morning. For example, England has a mass of legal services in Temple Bar in the west of London. That accumulation works well for the 7 million people in the London area, but what about the other 45 million people in the rest of that country?
Having said that, restraining legal firms would be counterproductive when we consider expansive legal services and their positive impact on the economy. Our challenge is to encourage the large firms in Scotland while ensuring that individuals who require legal services are not ignored. That is why I am happy that the Scottish Government will continue to work with the industry to develop a distinctly Scottish regulatory approach that recognises specific Scottish needs, while balancing the need for small communities to have access to justice and while enabling large firms to compete at the international level, much as the Royal Bank of Scotland Group is currently doing. Allowing the free market to have complete control of the legal services market would be devastating to many organisations and individuals in our communities.
Access to justice means ensuring that those who live in Scotland can expect fair and equal access to independent legal advice, regardless of their ability to pay and their location. As the debate about centralising larger firms persists, we must always keep in mind what access to justice means.
Several organisations currently provide legal advice or services to individuals who seek assistance. Although citizens advice bureaux, welfare rights advisers and community law centres provide services and assistance, many Scots still miss out. The reasons why people do not use those organisations and services vary, but people's lack of exposure to them certainly persists. People may often be unaware of the services that are available to them until it is too late.
Ignorance of the organisations and services can, unfortunately, be at the root of many very sad stories. Just the other day, I dealt with a constituent who was about to be evicted from their home. Many problems surround the eviction, some of which appear to relate to the housing association. Although various reasons lie behind the impending eviction, one burning question remains: what would have been the situation had my constituent received accurate information and assistance much earlier in the process? Without even considering all the specifics, it is obvious that the situation would probably not be the same as it currently is. It is therefore extremely important that the current free legal services unit of the Faculty of Advocates—which provides free advice and representation through Citizens Advice Scotland—is widely known about, but that is not the case. Information simply was not available for my constituent.
I have never been about to be evicted from a property that I stayed in. I am sure that everyone in the chamber agrees that no one should have to endure that situation. If assistance is available, people should have the opportunity to receive proper legal advice, so that evictions can be prevented.
Let us assume that the constituent was a council tenant and had obtained early legal assistance from a community law centre, which had received funding from the local authority. The local authority would then be paying for the defence of the tenant who was threatened with eviction, while at the same time trying to evict that tenant. If such a case were to reach the courts, how would the local authority sort out the paradox? [Interruption.]
Scotland has a unique situation regarding law and the legal profession, and for that reason the large-scale liberalisation of the English legal services market is not really appropriate for Scotland. The focus on large cities and dense urban areas in England does not really apply to Scotland's geography and small-town communities, as has been highlighted by the cabinet secretary this morning. For example, England has a mass of legal services in Temple Bar in the west of London. That accumulation works well for the 7 million people in the London area, but what about the other 45 million people in the rest of that country?
Having said that, restraining legal firms would be counterproductive when we consider expansive legal services and their positive impact on the economy. Our challenge is to encourage the large firms in Scotland while ensuring that individuals who require legal services are not ignored. That is why I am happy that the Scottish Government will continue to work with the industry to develop a distinctly Scottish regulatory approach that recognises specific Scottish needs, while balancing the need for small communities to have access to justice and while enabling large firms to compete at the international level, much as the Royal Bank of Scotland Group is currently doing. Allowing the free market to have complete control of the legal services market would be devastating to many organisations and individuals in our communities.
Access to justice means ensuring that those who live in Scotland can expect fair and equal access to independent legal advice, regardless of their ability to pay and their location. As the debate about centralising larger firms persists, we must always keep in mind what access to justice means.
Several organisations currently provide legal advice or services to individuals who seek assistance. Although citizens advice bureaux, welfare rights advisers and community law centres provide services and assistance, many Scots still miss out. The reasons why people do not use those organisations and services vary, but people's lack of exposure to them certainly persists. People may often be unaware of the services that are available to them until it is too late.
Ignorance of the organisations and services can, unfortunately, be at the root of many very sad stories. Just the other day, I dealt with a constituent who was about to be evicted from their home. Many problems surround the eviction, some of which appear to relate to the housing association. Although various reasons lie behind the impending eviction, one burning question remains: what would have been the situation had my constituent received accurate information and assistance much earlier in the process? Without even considering all the specifics, it is obvious that the situation would probably not be the same as it currently is. It is therefore extremely important that the current free legal services unit of the Faculty of Advocates—which provides free advice and representation through Citizens Advice Scotland—is widely known about, but that is not the case. Information simply was not available for my constituent.
I have never been about to be evicted from a property that I stayed in. I am sure that everyone in the chamber agrees that no one should have to endure that situation. If assistance is available, people should have the opportunity to receive proper legal advice, so that evictions can be prevented.
Let us assume that the constituent was a council tenant and had obtained early legal assistance from a community law centre, which had received funding from the local authority. The local authority would then be paying for the defence of the tenant who was threatened with eviction, while at the same time trying to evict that tenant. If such a case were to reach the courts, how would the local authority sort out the paradox? [Interruption.]
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
Good morning. The first item of business today is a debate on motion S3M-847, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on competition, regulation and business structu...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
I appreciate that the level of excitement about today's debate is not quite on all fours with the anticipation for Saturday's 5 pm kick-off at Hampden Park, ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
The Law Society of Scotland has suggested that, in its assumptions about the Scottish legal system, the Consumers Association made a number of errors, which ...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
We have been in regular contact with the OFT. We have always been at pains to point out that we accept the need for consumers' rights to be preserved and pro...
Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab):
Lab
I note that at your request, Presiding Officer, the minister extended his speech. I hope that you do not receive a fee note for that, given that he previousl...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I intervene at Mr Martin's request. We accept that although the Law Society and the Faculty of Advocates each perform a pivotal role for their professions, t...
Paul Martin:
Lab
I welcome that commitment from the cabinet secretary and agree with that way forward.A number of key issues are worth raising today, some of which were menti...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
I call Bill Aitken. Mr Aitken, as you have picked up, you basically have as long as you like.
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
Gee, thanks.The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and I have exchanged some harsh words this week, but he will no doubt be relieved to learn that that is highly ...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab):
Lab
Okay, so the legal profession contributes £1.2 billion to the Scottish economy, but is Bill Aitken saying that legal fees should go up instead of some way be...
Bill Aitken:
Con
No. Mr Whitton will be relieved to learn that I am saying that we should expand the market and bring in more business. As a good public relations man, he sho...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
I now call Mike Pringle, to whom the instructions that I gave Mr Aitken also apply.
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
That is probably a first.Although this subject is important, the English 2007 act that covers these issues does not become effective until 2011, so we are di...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate the Cabinet Secretary for Justice on the motion and Pauline McNeill on her amendment. The Scottish Government is clearly attempting to develop...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
When we are debating legal structures, it is important that we focus on the people who require access to the legal system. Their needs must inform our decisi...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I am grateful for the points made about civil legal aid. The Government's position has always been that we are happy to provide facilities for civil legal ai...
Rhoda Grant:
Lab
I understand the minister's point, but we have to consider the consumer—the person who needs the service. If they are saying that they are unable to access s...
Stuart McMillan (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I am sure that many members in the chamber are as delighted as I am at being dragooned into being here this morning.Scotland has a unique situation regarding...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
Excuse me, Mr McMillan.I do not know how many times I have to say this to members, but phones have to be switched off. Off.
Stuart McMillan:
SNP
Of course, funding problems are not solely related to community law centres. The Scottish Legal Aid Board's legal funds have been significantly drained thank...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab):
Lab
I speak to the amendment in the name of my colleague Pauline McNeill, with particular emphasis on widening choice and on easier access to more affordable leg...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
No, they have not. What the member says seems rather to contradict Mr Martin's points. Is Mr Whitton telling the chamber that he supports Tesco law?
David Whitton:
Lab
I support the move to make the law more affordable and more accessible to ordinary people in the street. One of the reasons why people want to introduce what...
Aileen Campbell (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Like previous speakers, I welcome the debate. It gives the Scottish Government the opportunity to respond to the super-complaint from the consumer group Whic...
Nigel Don (North East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
In the context of an extensive debate, I will address one specific issue that has not been mentioned much—advocates. The argument is made that it is uneconom...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
Presiding Officer, I crave your indulgence for my late arrival in the chamber.We are sentimental about the law because the law and the office of Lord Advocat...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
Again, we have had an interesting debate. It has been interesting listening to colleagues trying to fill not only their time, but that of other members. I en...
John Lamont (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con):
Con
I declare an interest as a member of the Law Society of England and Wales. I was a practising solicitor with Brodies until June 2007.Like many others who hav...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
I declare an interest in that my husband is a practising advocate. However, competition, regulation and alternative business structures are not often the sub...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
Order. The member may wish to draw her remarks to a conclusion, to allow the minister adequate time to respond.