Chamber
Plenary, 25 Oct 2007
25 Oct 2007 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Alcohol
I thank Richard Simpson, who made—as always—a well-informed intervention. I will talk about underage consumption.
On the proposal to ban certain drinks promotions, Labour members condemn retailers who seek to benefit from drinks promotions that encourage irresponsible alcohol consumption. However, we must be careful about how we deliver a ban. We considered the issue carefully during the passage of the Licensing (Scotland) Bill. Some people take advantage of drinks promotions responsibly—I hope that that includes most members—and should be entitled to have the opportunity to do so. We must consider whether evidence backs up the cabinet secretary's proposals. We must place on retailers a social responsibility to ensure that they do not encourage irresponsible consumption. Perhaps the simplest argument that we could put to retailers is that it is not in their interests to shorten consumers' lives by providing opportunities for alcohol abuse. The more we work with the industry to get that message across to retailers, the more successful we will be in implementing our strategy.
We must accept that alcohol abuse takes place in our streets and fuels antisocial activity throughout Scotland. I am sure that all members have heard from organisations in their constituencies who have expressed concern about the consumption of alcohol in public areas, particularly by young people. Such behaviour sets the wrong example for the next generation of young people. I am proud of the measures that were delivered by the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 and the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Act 2004 to ensure that legal remedies, such as dispersal orders, are in place to tackle unacceptable behaviour in streets throughout Scotland.
The zero-tolerance approach to such behaviour is welcome, which is why we have difficulty in accepting the Liberals' amendment. We support rehabilitation, but we must send a clear message of zero tolerance of irresponsible behaviour on our streets. On many occasions, rehabilitation has been offered and a number of other avenues exhausted before dispersal orders were considered.
There is no doubt that underage drinking presents a serious challenge to many communities throughout Scotland. The Labour amendment urges the cabinet secretary to call a summit of political leaders and relevant stakeholders in Scotland, to provide a framework and to develop not a strategy but an effective action plan to deal with this serious issue. At least 52 per cent of young girls in Scotland get drunk twice a month, which is unacceptable. I am sure that the cabinet secretary wants to work with us to create opportunities to tackle that.
We welcome the minister's commitment to ensuring that the polluter pays, but I will strike a less consensual note by quoting the following comment:
"I argue against the measure because it is punitive, as public house premises and clubs pay the Exchequer substantial amounts of money … in particular, through non-domestic rates."—[Official Report, 16 November 2005; c 20743.]
Those are not my words; they are the words of the Cabinet Secretary for Justice's deputy, the Minister for Community Safety, Fergus Ewing, who is not in the chamber.
I will quote another member:
"The way to address the problem is to deal with it through the bill and the new licensing regime. If necessary, the premises can be shut down. That is what we should do with these places. We should not enable them to bring in other measures as that could legitimise the antisocial behaviour."—[Official Report, Local Government and Transport Committee, 3 October 2005; c 2948.]
Bruce Crawford said that when he spoke in opposition to the amendment in my name, which was agreed at stage 2 of the Licensing (Scotland) Bill, the object of which was to ensure that licensed premises pay for the additional policing costs of dealing with any unacceptable activities that may result.
I commend the cabinet secretary for bringing forward a measure that was the subject of a successful Paul Martin amendment. Unfortunately, Fergus Ewing, now the Minister for Community Safety, lodged a stage 3 amendment that resulted in the measure being deleted from the bill. Labour Party members are happy to commend the SNP for emulating Labour Party policy and we look forward to providing the Government with many other examples of Labour amendments that were unsuccessful because of SNP opposition.
Of course, the Labour Party welcomes the opportunity to tackle the problem. We want to work with the wide range of organisations that have a role to play in tackling alcohol abuse, including Alcoholics Anonymous, to which I referred earlier, all of which have a serious role to play. We have to work together in Parliament on the issue. On occasion, that will mean that the Government will have to adopt policies that its members rejected when they were in opposition in a previous life.
I ask the chamber to support the amendment in Pauline McNeill's name.
I move amendment S3M-681.2, to insert after "product for sale":
"further notes the high incidence of underage drinking and the harm done to those young people and the negative effect that underage drinking can have on Scottish communities; believes that the Scottish Government should call a summit of all relevant stakeholders to develop an effective strategy to tackle underage drinking;"
On the proposal to ban certain drinks promotions, Labour members condemn retailers who seek to benefit from drinks promotions that encourage irresponsible alcohol consumption. However, we must be careful about how we deliver a ban. We considered the issue carefully during the passage of the Licensing (Scotland) Bill. Some people take advantage of drinks promotions responsibly—I hope that that includes most members—and should be entitled to have the opportunity to do so. We must consider whether evidence backs up the cabinet secretary's proposals. We must place on retailers a social responsibility to ensure that they do not encourage irresponsible consumption. Perhaps the simplest argument that we could put to retailers is that it is not in their interests to shorten consumers' lives by providing opportunities for alcohol abuse. The more we work with the industry to get that message across to retailers, the more successful we will be in implementing our strategy.
We must accept that alcohol abuse takes place in our streets and fuels antisocial activity throughout Scotland. I am sure that all members have heard from organisations in their constituencies who have expressed concern about the consumption of alcohol in public areas, particularly by young people. Such behaviour sets the wrong example for the next generation of young people. I am proud of the measures that were delivered by the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 and the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Act 2004 to ensure that legal remedies, such as dispersal orders, are in place to tackle unacceptable behaviour in streets throughout Scotland.
The zero-tolerance approach to such behaviour is welcome, which is why we have difficulty in accepting the Liberals' amendment. We support rehabilitation, but we must send a clear message of zero tolerance of irresponsible behaviour on our streets. On many occasions, rehabilitation has been offered and a number of other avenues exhausted before dispersal orders were considered.
There is no doubt that underage drinking presents a serious challenge to many communities throughout Scotland. The Labour amendment urges the cabinet secretary to call a summit of political leaders and relevant stakeholders in Scotland, to provide a framework and to develop not a strategy but an effective action plan to deal with this serious issue. At least 52 per cent of young girls in Scotland get drunk twice a month, which is unacceptable. I am sure that the cabinet secretary wants to work with us to create opportunities to tackle that.
We welcome the minister's commitment to ensuring that the polluter pays, but I will strike a less consensual note by quoting the following comment:
"I argue against the measure because it is punitive, as public house premises and clubs pay the Exchequer substantial amounts of money … in particular, through non-domestic rates."—[Official Report, 16 November 2005; c 20743.]
Those are not my words; they are the words of the Cabinet Secretary for Justice's deputy, the Minister for Community Safety, Fergus Ewing, who is not in the chamber.
I will quote another member:
"The way to address the problem is to deal with it through the bill and the new licensing regime. If necessary, the premises can be shut down. That is what we should do with these places. We should not enable them to bring in other measures as that could legitimise the antisocial behaviour."—[Official Report, Local Government and Transport Committee, 3 October 2005; c 2948.]
Bruce Crawford said that when he spoke in opposition to the amendment in my name, which was agreed at stage 2 of the Licensing (Scotland) Bill, the object of which was to ensure that licensed premises pay for the additional policing costs of dealing with any unacceptable activities that may result.
I commend the cabinet secretary for bringing forward a measure that was the subject of a successful Paul Martin amendment. Unfortunately, Fergus Ewing, now the Minister for Community Safety, lodged a stage 3 amendment that resulted in the measure being deleted from the bill. Labour Party members are happy to commend the SNP for emulating Labour Party policy and we look forward to providing the Government with many other examples of Labour amendments that were unsuccessful because of SNP opposition.
Of course, the Labour Party welcomes the opportunity to tackle the problem. We want to work with the wide range of organisations that have a role to play in tackling alcohol abuse, including Alcoholics Anonymous, to which I referred earlier, all of which have a serious role to play. We have to work together in Parliament on the issue. On occasion, that will mean that the Government will have to adopt policies that its members rejected when they were in opposition in a previous life.
I ask the chamber to support the amendment in Pauline McNeill's name.
I move amendment S3M-681.2, to insert after "product for sale":
"further notes the high incidence of underage drinking and the harm done to those young people and the negative effect that underage drinking can have on Scottish communities; believes that the Scottish Government should call a summit of all relevant stakeholders to develop an effective strategy to tackle underage drinking;"
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-681, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on alcohol. I invite members who wish to take part in the debate to ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
I say at the outset that I will be happy to accept Pauline McNeill's amendment. We are seeking to address underage drinking and although we have laws, they m...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab):
Lab
Does the cabinet secretary share my concern that alcohol can be bought in garages and chip shops? Surely making it so easy to purchase alcohol increases the ...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
Absolutely. The matter was flagged up by the previous Executive, and this Government will continue to move in the same direction.The fact is that we have to ...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
Should we infer from the tenor of the cabinet secretary's comments that the Government wants the whole Parliament to urge the Chancellor of the Exchequer to ...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
This Government feels that we should have those powers because they are, after all, powers that any normal independent nation has that allow it to act approp...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
I am not sure that every member does agree. In other European Union countries, such as Italy, people spend a lot of money on alcohol and wine, and beer and s...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
We said at the outset that although price is not the only issue, it is a pivotal factor. We want to address the culture of price promotion and a variety of o...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
I should have said that we will be extremely tight for time if we are to fit everyone in, so I ask members to watch their time.
Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab):
Lab
The Executive is to be commended for having a debate on alcohol during alcohol awareness week. It is important that members put on record our appreciation of...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab):
Lab
The most recent "Scottish Schools Adolescent Lifestyle and Substance Use Survey National Report"—a survey of schoolchildren aged 13 and 15, which is conducte...
Paul Martin:
Lab
I thank Richard Simpson, who made—as always—a well-informed intervention. I will talk about underage consumption.On the proposal to ban certain drinks promot...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
The debate is on a reasonably consensual matter; indeed, the Conservatives find the Labour Party and Liberal Democrat amendments acceptable. There is also mu...
The Minister for Public Health (Shona Robison):
SNP
Does Bill Aitken not accept that the whole point of alcohol awareness week is that people should know their own drinking limits? Surely each person should as...
Bill Aitken:
Con
The words to stress are "their own". We are talking about individual levels. That is the way forward, but we have to recognise that each individual has a dif...
Shona Robison:
SNP
Does the member agree that the evidence clearly shows that rates of consumption have gone up? Where young people are concerned, there is a direct correlation...
Bill Aitken:
Con
I will explain where my concern lies. Suppose a supermarket does a deal that involves selling 12 cans of lager for the price of six. If an old-age pensioner ...
Ross Finnie (West of Scotland) (LD):
LD
I welcome the cabinet secretary's securing of this debate on alcohol. I also welcome many of his remarks, particularly those on the importance, difficulties ...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
Is the member suggesting that the ways in which alcohol is promoted that I mentioned in my speech are acceptable? Is it acceptable that beer is displayed wit...
Ross Finnie:
LD
That is not the point that I am making, although I can see where the cabinet secretary is coming from. History shows that there is a danger in the sort of wo...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
We move to the open debate, with speeches of a tight six minutes, please.
Ian McKee (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
We have heard and will hear more about the strategies that have been suggested for educating consumers on the dangers of excess alcohol consumption and about...
Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab):
Lab
One of the most harrowing experiences I had as a social worker was taking into care, in the early hours of a morning, a young baby of about six months whose ...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP):
SNP
In August 1994, while I was on holiday in Austria, I got the phone call that no one wants to receive. My mother called me to tell me that my father had died....
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome alcohol awareness week and its efforts to encourage sensible drinking. However, as other members highlighted, an unhealthy attitude towards alcohol...
John Lamont (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con):
Con
Excessive alcohol consumption is a growing problem throughout Scotland, including in my constituency in the Borders. Lifestyles and the way in which alcohol ...
Dr Simpson:
Lab
The member makes an important point, but the early stages of alcohol-related brain damage result in repeated admissions, so the important point is not just t...
John Lamont:
Con
Indeed. I agree.Men and women in Scotland drink more frequently than men and women in England. Men and women in Scotland are also more likely to exceed the d...
Hugh O'Donnell (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
Scotland's somewhat unhealthy relationship with alcohol is nothing new, as most of us know. The scale of the problem is obvious; it is growing and has been f...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
Will the member explain what he believes are the extreme legal interventions that the Government is proposing? I view our regulations on liquor licensing as ...