Chamber
Plenary, 14 Dec 2006
14 Dec 2006 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Legal Profession and Legal Aid (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
Amendment 5 has some attraction, in so far as it would require the commission to review its operations after its first two years. We commend such reviews as good administrative practice and certainly expect the commission to hold a consultative review seeking the views of interested parties on issues arising from its first few years of operation. However, that is as far as we would go. The amendment reflects the unease that some feel about the split that the bill makes between conduct and service complaints and about the fact that responsibility for conduct complaints is to be retained by the professional organisations. As has already been said, those issues were debated by the Justice 2 Committee at stage 2 in the context of amendments lodged by John Swinney. There was also debate about where the split is and how difficult it can be to make that absolutely definitive, but the bill recognises that there is the capacity to shift from one to the other, and that is an acknowledgement that a complaint that starts off as one type may become another and might therefore have to be dealt with in that way.
In our view, it would not be right to add conduct complaints to the commission's remit. The purpose of the commission is to provide an informal and consumer-friendly process, to promote mediation and dispute resolution at source and to focus on redress for consumer complaints. In contrast, conduct allegations carry with them the risk of a range of disciplinary sanctions against the practitioner, up to and including loss of livelihood. Disciplinary hearings against practitioners that could trigger sanctions of such severity require different, more formal and adversarial procedures, and full rights of appeal. If, in the worst-case scenario that John Swinney describes, it was found that that split was not working, it would not be a given that the commission would take over that role. A different solution may be needed, and the presumption that it would fall to the commission is not right. The professional organisations and, where appropriate, the discipline tribunals are already skilled at performing that sort of role and should be left to continue to do so. Given that the regulatory bodies set the standards of conduct for members of the profession, those bodies are in the best position to assess shortcomings. For those reasons, we do not support amendment 5.
On amendment 7, we do not believe that it is appropriate to have a reserve power to remove, by means of regulations, responsibility for conduct complaints from the professional organisations.
Even by John Swinney's standards, his suggestion that our acceptance of one amendment to one bill constitutes past practice on the part of the Executive is a little elastic with the truth. In our view, an important principle of the bill is that service complaints should be dealt with by the commission and conduct complaints should be dealt with by the professional bodies. It is reasonable to argue that primary legislation would be the most appropriate way to make such a fundamental change, given that a range of options would need to be considered if, in the way that John Swinney fears, the approach in the bill had failed.
We do not support amendment 5 and we do not recognise the need for the reserve power in amendment 7, no matter how attractive John Swinney might have managed to make it appear by claiming precedent.
In our view, it would not be right to add conduct complaints to the commission's remit. The purpose of the commission is to provide an informal and consumer-friendly process, to promote mediation and dispute resolution at source and to focus on redress for consumer complaints. In contrast, conduct allegations carry with them the risk of a range of disciplinary sanctions against the practitioner, up to and including loss of livelihood. Disciplinary hearings against practitioners that could trigger sanctions of such severity require different, more formal and adversarial procedures, and full rights of appeal. If, in the worst-case scenario that John Swinney describes, it was found that that split was not working, it would not be a given that the commission would take over that role. A different solution may be needed, and the presumption that it would fall to the commission is not right. The professional organisations and, where appropriate, the discipline tribunals are already skilled at performing that sort of role and should be left to continue to do so. Given that the regulatory bodies set the standards of conduct for members of the profession, those bodies are in the best position to assess shortcomings. For those reasons, we do not support amendment 5.
On amendment 7, we do not believe that it is appropriate to have a reserve power to remove, by means of regulations, responsibility for conduct complaints from the professional organisations.
Even by John Swinney's standards, his suggestion that our acceptance of one amendment to one bill constitutes past practice on the part of the Executive is a little elastic with the truth. In our view, an important principle of the bill is that service complaints should be dealt with by the commission and conduct complaints should be dealt with by the professional bodies. It is reasonable to argue that primary legislation would be the most appropriate way to make such a fundamental change, given that a range of options would need to be considered if, in the way that John Swinney fears, the approach in the bill had failed.
We do not support amendment 5 and we do not recognise the need for the reserve power in amendment 7, no matter how attractive John Swinney might have managed to make it appear by claiming precedent.
In the same item of business
Resumed debate.
Section 23—Duty of Commission to make rules as to practice and procedure
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
Group 17 is about publication of and consultation on rules as to the commission's practice and procedure. Amendment 66, in the name of David Davidson, is gro...
Mr Davidson:
Con
Amendments 66 and 67 enhance accountability and transparency, which is essential in a process as technical as the workings of the Scottish Legal Complaints C...
Johann Lamont:
Lab
We continue this afternoon as we started this morning.Amendment 69 adds the Lord President to the list of those whom the commission is required to consult be...
Mr Davidson:
Con
I thank the minister for understanding what we are seeking to do to improve the bill. I very much welcome her support in these matters.
Amendment 66 agreed to.
Amendments 67 and 68 moved—Mr David Davidson—and agreed to.
Amendment 69 moved—Johann Lamont—and agreed to.
Amendment 70 moved—Mr David Davidson—and agreed to.
After section 27
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
Group 18 is on a report to Scottish ministers on conduct complaints. Amendment 5, in the name of John Swinney, is grouped with amendment 7.
Mr Swinney:
SNP
One of the matters discussed at length during consideration of the bill at stages 1 and 2 was whether complaints about services and conduct should be handled...
Mr Davidson:
Con
I am afraid that I cannot support John Swinney's amendment 5, for the simple reason that what he proposes involves a conflict of interests. If he is so keen ...
Colin Fox (Lothians) (SSP):
SSP
Mr Swinney raises an important issue that is at the centre of the bill. The Justice 2 Committee spent a lot of its time considering conduct complaints, and i...
Johann Lamont:
Lab
Amendment 5 has some attraction, in so far as it would require the commission to review its operations after its first two years. We commend such reviews as ...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
David Davidson seems to have fundamentally misunderstood or misread amendment 5. I am almost tempted to allow him to make a further speech in case he is more...
Members:
No.
Mr Swinney:
SNP
My colleagues are encouraging me not to be so generous, so I should perhaps withdraw that offer.The purpose of amendment 5 is not to ensure that the commissi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 5 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
There will be a division. There will be a five-minute suspension to allow members to come into the chamber.
Meeting suspended.
On resuming—
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
We will proceed with the division on amendment 5, in the name of John Swinney.
ForAdam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP) Baird, Shiona (North East Scotland) (Green) Ballance, Chris (South of Scotland) (Green) Ballard, Mark (Lothians) (Green...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
The result of the division is: For 33, Against 71, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 5 disagreed to.
Section 28—Obtaining of information from relevant professional organisations
Amendment 71 moved—David Davidson.