Chamber
Plenary, 16 Mar 2006
16 Mar 2006 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
European Commission Green Papers (Divorce and Succession and Wills)
The Justice 1 Committee brought this matter to the attention of the Parliament, because green papers have a habit of changing colour. There is little doubt that acting at an early point in the European legislative process increases dramatically the likelihood that one can influence the outcome. We have seen too often, when intervening at a late stage, that when a proposal has achieved a degree of momentum it can be difficult to dislodge.
The debate can be summed up in one simple phrase. Parliament is saying clearly and unambiguously to the European Union and its officials, "Get your tanks off our lawn; we're nae having it."
A number of members have raised the issue of the internationality of Scotland and the people in it and reference was made to some of my constituency work, which touched on that. It is worth saying that in the past couple of years a widow of a member of the Movement for Democratic Change in Zimbabwe has sought my help—her brother and her husband were both murdered by Robert Mugabe's men; I have heard from a Chinese acupuncturist who had residency problems; and I have spent something of the order of £500 on translation fees in seeking to help a Latvian father whose daughter had the misfortune to die in my constituency. I do not imagine that any member has had nothing of a similar nature in their constituency work.
The world is international; we cannot roll that back. That is not even a recent development. My great, great grandfather William Stewart emigrated to the United States, but did not like it much and came back. My great, great uncle Alexander Berrie went to Australia; he did like it, stayed there and became a multimillionaire. A rather distant cousin of mine, James Jeffrey, died in Shanghai in 1870 at the age of 33, thus cutting off his potential before it could be fully realised. In all the weddings that I have attended in the past 15 or 20 years, there have been six different nationalities among one or other of the partners. I am one quarter English, so I am used to cross-jurisdictional marriages.
I take particular interest in internationality because Banff and Buchan is the most cosmopolitan constituency in Scotland, which is reflected by the fact that we have three consulates. That might surprise some members.
There is little doubt that few if any of us have been approached by our constituents or by anyone else saying that the law that touches on international private affairs in either divorce or testamentary affairs requires to be changed. I have not met anyone who has been so approached. The reason for that is straightforward: by and large, the law works as well as it is possible for such things to work. None of us wishes ever to encounter either circumstance, but the reality is that death is inevitable and divorce is all too common. It is important that we have a well-founded, well-understood and well-established system for dealing with those matters. In Scotland, as in the majority of the countries in the European Union, there are well-established processes that mean that the law works pretty damn well.
Why are we considering change? Cynically, I say that it is perhaps because idle hands are looking for work to do. It would be proper for us to consider change that provides mutual benefit to people throughout the European Union, where there is a genuine, identifiable problem that requires it. We should make such changes by mutual decision making, which would ensure that the distinctive Scottish system was represented in whatever way was appropriate at the time. In that way, we would have mutual laws and practices. However, if there is no need for change, change should not be driven by officials.
We are clear that there is absolutely no blank cheque for EU proposals in this area. I do not believe that any political party, in the Parliament or beyond, wishes us to act in the way that the green paper suggests.
Under Scots law, it is straightforward to establish jurisdiction in divorce and testamentary matters. If we reach the position where people can shop for jurisdictions, applicable law will get really complicated. Recognition and enforcement work quite well at the moment.
Think of this: if the law were to change, fewer people might go to another country to marry. I am neither for nor agin that, but the people in Gretna might regret it if their business went down a bit because of potential complications for people who want to travel to another jurisdiction to marry.
The freedoms of people throughout Europe are protected by the status quo; the freedoms of people in Scotland are served adequately by existing Scots law. I hope that the minister either in her ministerial capacity or, if that is not possible, in her private capacity, will ensure that a copy of today's Official Report is delivered to the appropriate people in Brussels. I add my support to the motion.
The debate can be summed up in one simple phrase. Parliament is saying clearly and unambiguously to the European Union and its officials, "Get your tanks off our lawn; we're nae having it."
A number of members have raised the issue of the internationality of Scotland and the people in it and reference was made to some of my constituency work, which touched on that. It is worth saying that in the past couple of years a widow of a member of the Movement for Democratic Change in Zimbabwe has sought my help—her brother and her husband were both murdered by Robert Mugabe's men; I have heard from a Chinese acupuncturist who had residency problems; and I have spent something of the order of £500 on translation fees in seeking to help a Latvian father whose daughter had the misfortune to die in my constituency. I do not imagine that any member has had nothing of a similar nature in their constituency work.
The world is international; we cannot roll that back. That is not even a recent development. My great, great grandfather William Stewart emigrated to the United States, but did not like it much and came back. My great, great uncle Alexander Berrie went to Australia; he did like it, stayed there and became a multimillionaire. A rather distant cousin of mine, James Jeffrey, died in Shanghai in 1870 at the age of 33, thus cutting off his potential before it could be fully realised. In all the weddings that I have attended in the past 15 or 20 years, there have been six different nationalities among one or other of the partners. I am one quarter English, so I am used to cross-jurisdictional marriages.
I take particular interest in internationality because Banff and Buchan is the most cosmopolitan constituency in Scotland, which is reflected by the fact that we have three consulates. That might surprise some members.
There is little doubt that few if any of us have been approached by our constituents or by anyone else saying that the law that touches on international private affairs in either divorce or testamentary affairs requires to be changed. I have not met anyone who has been so approached. The reason for that is straightforward: by and large, the law works as well as it is possible for such things to work. None of us wishes ever to encounter either circumstance, but the reality is that death is inevitable and divorce is all too common. It is important that we have a well-founded, well-understood and well-established system for dealing with those matters. In Scotland, as in the majority of the countries in the European Union, there are well-established processes that mean that the law works pretty damn well.
Why are we considering change? Cynically, I say that it is perhaps because idle hands are looking for work to do. It would be proper for us to consider change that provides mutual benefit to people throughout the European Union, where there is a genuine, identifiable problem that requires it. We should make such changes by mutual decision making, which would ensure that the distinctive Scottish system was represented in whatever way was appropriate at the time. In that way, we would have mutual laws and practices. However, if there is no need for change, change should not be driven by officials.
We are clear that there is absolutely no blank cheque for EU proposals in this area. I do not believe that any political party, in the Parliament or beyond, wishes us to act in the way that the green paper suggests.
Under Scots law, it is straightforward to establish jurisdiction in divorce and testamentary matters. If we reach the position where people can shop for jurisdictions, applicable law will get really complicated. Recognition and enforcement work quite well at the moment.
Think of this: if the law were to change, fewer people might go to another country to marry. I am neither for nor agin that, but the people in Gretna might regret it if their business went down a bit because of potential complications for people who want to travel to another jurisdiction to marry.
The freedoms of people throughout Europe are protected by the status quo; the freedoms of people in Scotland are served adequately by existing Scots law. I hope that the minister either in her ministerial capacity or, if that is not possible, in her private capacity, will ensure that a copy of today's Official Report is delivered to the appropriate people in Brussels. I add my support to the motion.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-4088, in the name of Pauline McNeill, on behalf of the Justice 1 Committee, on European Commission green ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
I am grateful to the Parliamentary Bureau for allowing the Justice 1 Committee this slot to discuss our report on what we regard as very important European i...
Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
I fully support the position that Ms McNeill and the Justice 1 Committee have taken. I see that Mr Gallie is present, so I put on record that although I cond...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
I have a great deal of sympathy with what Kenny MacAskill says, but if the Scottish National Party is against common European policies on fisheries, on some ...
Mr MacAskill:
SNP
Absolutely. I have written and spoken about that subject, so I think that Mr Purvis's intervention is an irrelevancy. He may have been attempting to make a p...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
I welcome today's debate. I do so not because I believe that there is anything contentious in the motion or that there is likely to be disagreement on the Ju...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
Members of the Justice 1 Committee must do all that we can to protect and enhance our legal system in Scotland. There is no doubt that the European Commissio...
Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab):
Lab
It is important that Parliament's committees discuss, take a view on and influence the European Commission's decisions. Like Kenny MacAskill, I am a strong s...
Jeremy Purvis:
LD
I was not involved in the committee's consideration, but does the member agree that, in an international divorce, there may be assets and bank accounts in di...
Mrs Mulligan:
Lab
Such situations may arise, but the important point is that, at present, people know which law will be used to deal with them.On succession and wills, Scotlan...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
The Commission's green paper outlines what it considers to be shortcomings in the current situation in the European Union. On divorce, there should be some s...
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
Does the member agree that there have always been complex situations? We have dealt with private international law for a long time, using the Hague conventio...
Jeremy Purvis:
LD
Ultimately, I agree. We do not hear the S-word much, but subsidiarity should be the basis of legislation in Scotland, the UK and the EU, so that legislators ...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
Unless the world turns upside down at the conclusion of the debate, common sense will prevail. It was not always thus. The Minister for Justice has heard me ...
The Minister for Justice (Cathy Jamieson):
Lab
I have no interests to declare, as I do not have a holiday home in Tuscany, Benidorm or anywhere else. I am, of course, domiciled in the central part of Euro...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
The Justice 1 Committee brought this matter to the attention of the Parliament, because green papers have a habit of changing colour. There is little doubt t...