Chamber
Plenary, 18 Nov 2004
18 Nov 2004 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Fire (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
As a new member of the Justice 2 Committee, I did not have the opportunity to take part in any of the evidence sessions, but I nevertheless welcome the opportunity to make a number of general observations about the stage 1 report on the bill.
The committee found that a general welcome had been extended to the principal objective of the bill: the delivery of modernised fire and rescue services that respond to the particular demands of 21st century Scotland. There was general agreement that the current legislation required to be updated to mirror the breadth of the role of the modern fire service, which now has multifarious functions, and to deliver a clear framework of responsibility for fire safety. The Executive should be given credit for recognising that the current legislation that governs the fire service, which dates back to 1947, does not and cannot possibly take proper account of the evolution of the fire service over more than half a century.
Of course, the primary purpose of the fire service is still to tackle fires, but the bill seeks to reflect properly the variety of roles that the fire service now carries out, in particular fire prevention, attending road traffic accidents and undertaking other rescue work.
The FBU's submission to the Justice 2 Committee welcomes
"The inclusion in Sections 7 & 9 of Fire Safety Duties and Road Traffic Accidents as a Statutory Obligation".
The FBU is correct in its assertion that
"These functions have been carried out for many years by Firefighters and it is right & proper that they are finally acknowledged and enshrined in statute."
The inclusion of road traffic accidents as a statutory obligation is a welcome recognition that the number of calls to assist with the rescue of people from wreckage and to protect people from harm from the spillage of hazardous substances has increased dramatically. It is right and fitting that a relevant authority will now be statutorily obliged to make provision for rescuing persons from road traffic accidents and for dealing with the aftermath of such accidents.
Despite the general welcome afforded to the policy intentions of the bill, especially the commonsense reforms to which I have referred, specific concerns have been expressed. Some witnesses also expressed broad concerns about the overall approach taken in the bill. I will touch on a few of those concerns.
First, the balance between central, strategic direction and local accountability, the extent of ministerial powers and the clarity of the provisions on fire service governance were questioned. Among other things, the CFOA wants to see in statute a direct line of reporting responsibility from the firemaster to the fire authority, as pertains in the Fire Services Act 1947. The FBU, along with COSLA, has expressed concern that the proposed legislation does not set out explicitly enough the local democratic and operational control that is seen, rightly, as being central to an effective fire service.
Those are crucial concerns, and I was glad to see that the minister, when attempting to reassure the committee, stressed that
"the fire and rescue service will remain a local government service and that its day-to-day operation and management will take place at local level."—[Official Report, Justice 2 Committee, 28 September 2004; c 1057.]
I also note that he was confident that the firemaster's role could be made clear through either contractual arrangements or a fire board's standing orders, given that the board is the accountable body for the fire service. I was pleased that the minister offered further clarification this morning and reiterated his assurances on those matters, in particular on the CFOA's position. That is to be welcomed.
Many members have spoken about the number of control rooms, which is perhaps one of the more contentious issues and has generated a great deal of interest, not to say controversy. Although the proposal does not require legislation, it appears to be seen by some as an important part of the modernisation programme. Many witnesses, though not all, did not accept that a case for change had been made. A concern expressed by the CFOA, for example, was that the consultant's report is flawed in that it overstates the scope for savings. Other concerns centred on resilience and the potential loss of local knowledge.
I know that the Executive has not yet reached a conclusion, and I note that the minister has reiterated that there will be further consultation with all interested parties before a final decision is made. That is very welcome. I hope that the minister will take careful note of the committee's view that a single control room would be absolutely "undesirable", to quote the report.
The committee found that a general welcome had been extended to the principal objective of the bill: the delivery of modernised fire and rescue services that respond to the particular demands of 21st century Scotland. There was general agreement that the current legislation required to be updated to mirror the breadth of the role of the modern fire service, which now has multifarious functions, and to deliver a clear framework of responsibility for fire safety. The Executive should be given credit for recognising that the current legislation that governs the fire service, which dates back to 1947, does not and cannot possibly take proper account of the evolution of the fire service over more than half a century.
Of course, the primary purpose of the fire service is still to tackle fires, but the bill seeks to reflect properly the variety of roles that the fire service now carries out, in particular fire prevention, attending road traffic accidents and undertaking other rescue work.
The FBU's submission to the Justice 2 Committee welcomes
"The inclusion in Sections 7 & 9 of Fire Safety Duties and Road Traffic Accidents as a Statutory Obligation".
The FBU is correct in its assertion that
"These functions have been carried out for many years by Firefighters and it is right & proper that they are finally acknowledged and enshrined in statute."
The inclusion of road traffic accidents as a statutory obligation is a welcome recognition that the number of calls to assist with the rescue of people from wreckage and to protect people from harm from the spillage of hazardous substances has increased dramatically. It is right and fitting that a relevant authority will now be statutorily obliged to make provision for rescuing persons from road traffic accidents and for dealing with the aftermath of such accidents.
Despite the general welcome afforded to the policy intentions of the bill, especially the commonsense reforms to which I have referred, specific concerns have been expressed. Some witnesses also expressed broad concerns about the overall approach taken in the bill. I will touch on a few of those concerns.
First, the balance between central, strategic direction and local accountability, the extent of ministerial powers and the clarity of the provisions on fire service governance were questioned. Among other things, the CFOA wants to see in statute a direct line of reporting responsibility from the firemaster to the fire authority, as pertains in the Fire Services Act 1947. The FBU, along with COSLA, has expressed concern that the proposed legislation does not set out explicitly enough the local democratic and operational control that is seen, rightly, as being central to an effective fire service.
Those are crucial concerns, and I was glad to see that the minister, when attempting to reassure the committee, stressed that
"the fire and rescue service will remain a local government service and that its day-to-day operation and management will take place at local level."—[Official Report, Justice 2 Committee, 28 September 2004; c 1057.]
I also note that he was confident that the firemaster's role could be made clear through either contractual arrangements or a fire board's standing orders, given that the board is the accountable body for the fire service. I was pleased that the minister offered further clarification this morning and reiterated his assurances on those matters, in particular on the CFOA's position. That is to be welcomed.
Many members have spoken about the number of control rooms, which is perhaps one of the more contentious issues and has generated a great deal of interest, not to say controversy. Although the proposal does not require legislation, it appears to be seen by some as an important part of the modernisation programme. Many witnesses, though not all, did not accept that a case for change had been made. A concern expressed by the CFOA, for example, was that the consultant's report is flawed in that it overstates the scope for savings. Other concerns centred on resilience and the potential loss of local knowledge.
I know that the Executive has not yet reached a conclusion, and I note that the minister has reiterated that there will be further consultation with all interested parties before a final decision is made. That is very welcome. I hope that the minister will take careful note of the committee's view that a single control room would be absolutely "undesirable", to quote the report.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
Good morning. The first item of business is a debate on motion S2M-1960, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, that the general principles of the Fire (Scotland) Bi...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):
Lab
I am delighted to open the debate on the general principles of the Fire (Scotland) Bill on behalf of the Executive. Our partnership agreement gave a commitme...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
Some of members' unease might be to do with the possibility of that power being used to reduce the number of fire control rooms around Scotland, a proposal t...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I will deal with the issue of fire control rooms in a minute; if I may, I will stick to amalgamation.The power to amalgamate fire authorities has existed sin...
Mr Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Does the minister understand that the unease that is shared by members of different parties and by many people outside the Parliament concerns the fact that ...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
There is no intention to rule by diktat. Any action that the Executive took on any such issues would follow thorough consultation and full discussion. We hav...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
There has been a great deal of interest in, and some controversy about, the discussion on the future number of control rooms. I accept some of the assurances...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I would be happy to do that. It is my intention that, after we have reflected on the comments that have been made and done further work on the calculations, ...
Shona Robison (Dundee East) (SNP):
SNP
The minister mentioned that 23 of the 32 local authorities came down on the side of having three control rooms. The question that Mott MacDonald asked was wh...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
No, I do not, because a number of the responses argued for the status quo. The issue now is whether we are prepared to do further work and give the matter fu...
Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
I thank the minister for his clarification of many points and for the tenor and tone of his speech. The fire service has served Scotland and her communities ...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I hope that Mr MacAskill recognises that, as I explained to the committee, only one of the powers that he refers to—that of emergency direction—is exercisabl...
Mr MacAskill:
SNP
I accept that and welcome the tenor of the minister's words. However, the devil is in the detail and we must ask further questions about the use of ministeri...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
Kenny MacAskill has indicated that others in his party will comment on the issue of fire control rooms at some length, but I must point out that the bill is ...
Mr MacAskill:
SNP
The minister's words are factually correct, but many members of the public and many members in this chamber—not just those in my party—are concerned about th...
Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I take this opportunity to thank my fellow committee members, the clerks to the Justice 2 Committee and the witnesses who gave evidence during the stage 1 pr...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I am baffled and would welcome further discussion with Annabel Goldie about exactly how the situation would change. The power has existed since 1947. All we ...
Miss Goldie:
Con
That is the nub of the disagreement between us. My reading of the bill is that it will provide for a ministerial power that could be instigated by the minist...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
I, too, welcome the opportunity to take part in this debate on the stage 1 report on the Fire (Scotland) Bill.A considerable amount of evidence was given to ...
Miss Goldie:
Con
If that is the member's understanding of the situation, will he confirm that that is what section 2(1) says?
Mike Pringle:
LD
That is my interpretation of it. There was considerable discussion of the matter in the committee, and we must take a view. That is my view of the bill as it...
Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
The fire and rescue services—especially the local brigades—are held in high regard by the people of Scotland. The area that I represent has only one full-tim...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
Maureen Macmillan's point relates to an issue that was also raised by Kenny MacAskill. Section 45 clearly states that any negotiating body should include rep...
Maureen Macmillan:
Lab
I am glad of that assurance, as I hope others will be.The Mott MacDonald report has, as the minister knows, caused anxiety in most brigade areas. I ask the m...
Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I know that my colleagues will elaborate on this point, but listening to what the minister had to say about the reduction in the number of control rooms, I s...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
Will the member tell us how many local authorities are represented by those three brigades?
Ms White:
SNP
I was just about to say that the three fire brigades or authorities that indicated that three control rooms would be their preferred option represent 23 loca...
Colin Fox (Lothians) (SSP):
SSP
Two years ago today, the first national fire strike in 25 years began. I was on the picket line at Liberton fire station in Edinburgh. Little did I realise t...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
As a new member of the Justice 2 Committee, I did not have the opportunity to take part in any of the evidence sessions, but I nevertheless welcome the oppor...
Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I heard what the member said about having a single control room, but what is his view on the prospect of having three control rooms?