Chamber
Plenary, 18 Nov 2004
18 Nov 2004 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Fire (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I am delighted to open the debate on the general principles of the Fire (Scotland) Bill on behalf of the Executive. Our partnership agreement gave a commitment to introduce new fire legislation. The bill forms an important part of the Executive's strategy to modernise the fire and rescue service to meet local needs, to increase local decision making and to develop the work force, all with the aim of contributing to a safer Scotland.
Our main priority is to save more lives and to reduce injuries from fire. The bill will help us to achieve that by placing a greater emphasis on fire safety. The number of domestic fire deaths in Scotland, which in 2002 had reduced to 62, is one of the lowest on record but, frankly, it is still too high—proportionately, the figure for Scotland is higher than that for any other part of the United Kingdom. We can and must do better.
The single largest cause of domestic fire deaths is smoking in the home—perhaps in bed or in association with the consumption of alcohol—so the key to making further progress lies in increased and improved fire prevention measures. That is why the bill makes community fire safety a statutory function of fire and rescue authorities. As well as recognising the fire and rescue service's traditional role of firefighting, the bill acknowledges the service's extended role in dealing with road traffic accidents, for example, and in responding to the greater threats that environmental disasters such as flooding and the increased threat of terrorism pose.
The bill underpins our wider strategy for fire and rescue services in Scotland. Our aim is to provide improved fire safety for communities throughout Scotland through the introduction of integrated risk management plans that tailor each service's action to the risks and needs of its area. The publication of a national framework will set out the Executive's priorities for the fire and rescue service and how we will work with the service to ensure that the modernisation agenda is delivered effectively.
The work force will receive a range of improvements. As well as significant increases in pay, considerable resources have been committed to a new integrated personal development system, which will meet the development needs of all fire and rescue service staff from point of entry to retirement. There will also be a new approach to recruitment, appointments and promotion. We believe that all those improvements and initiatives will mean that fire and rescue services in Scotland are even better placed to make our communities safer.
The bill is the culmination of more than two years of formal consultation, which began in April 2002 with the publication of our first consultation paper, "The Scottish Fire Service of the Future". The paper sought views on a wide range of proposals that were aimed at improving the service and at making the best use of its resources. Its many recommendations received considerable support. The process continued with the publication just over a year ago, on 1 October 2003, of "The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service: Proposals for Legislation". Those proposals were subsequently debated in the Parliament on 8 October 2003.
I am grateful to the Justice 2 Committee and its staff for their careful consideration of the bill and for producing a comprehensive and clear report. I am pleased that the committee has endorsed the principles of the bill and that, in general, the bill and its policy intentions were welcomed by the people who gave evidence. It is particularly encouraging that both the committee and its witnesses were content with the Executive's approach on the provision of a statutory underpinning for the principal functions of the fire and rescue service. The bill provides a flexible means of adding to those functions to reflect change over time. It is good to have some consensus about the way forward in a key public emergency service.
I welcome the constructive recommendations that the committee made. I will of course write to the committee shortly, to respond to its report and to indicate what amendments the Executive intends to lodge at stage 2. There is no doubt that stage 2 will provide an opportunity to examine the issues in more detail and we will continue to listen carefully to members of the committee and to stakeholders.
I turn to some of the main observations that were made in the committee's report. First, I will deal with the comments on the role of chief fire officers. When I gave evidence to the committee, I made it clear that the fire and rescue service is a local authority service that will continue to be managed locally. I believe that the bill strikes the right balance between local and ministerial powers. However, I am happy to reflect further on what the committee and others have said about the need to clarify in the bill the chief fire officers' responsibilities and their relationship with, and accountability to, the fire and rescue authority or the joint fire and rescue board. The committee also asked whether the bill needs to clarify the role of the senior fire officer in relation to the control of incidents involving fires. We will consider that, too.
I note that some committee members had concerns about the power to amalgamate fire and rescue authorities being used to reduce the number of such authorities in Scotland. However, I remind members that the power in question is not new, as it has been carried forward, in a slightly modified form, from the Fire Services Act 1947.
Our main priority is to save more lives and to reduce injuries from fire. The bill will help us to achieve that by placing a greater emphasis on fire safety. The number of domestic fire deaths in Scotland, which in 2002 had reduced to 62, is one of the lowest on record but, frankly, it is still too high—proportionately, the figure for Scotland is higher than that for any other part of the United Kingdom. We can and must do better.
The single largest cause of domestic fire deaths is smoking in the home—perhaps in bed or in association with the consumption of alcohol—so the key to making further progress lies in increased and improved fire prevention measures. That is why the bill makes community fire safety a statutory function of fire and rescue authorities. As well as recognising the fire and rescue service's traditional role of firefighting, the bill acknowledges the service's extended role in dealing with road traffic accidents, for example, and in responding to the greater threats that environmental disasters such as flooding and the increased threat of terrorism pose.
The bill underpins our wider strategy for fire and rescue services in Scotland. Our aim is to provide improved fire safety for communities throughout Scotland through the introduction of integrated risk management plans that tailor each service's action to the risks and needs of its area. The publication of a national framework will set out the Executive's priorities for the fire and rescue service and how we will work with the service to ensure that the modernisation agenda is delivered effectively.
The work force will receive a range of improvements. As well as significant increases in pay, considerable resources have been committed to a new integrated personal development system, which will meet the development needs of all fire and rescue service staff from point of entry to retirement. There will also be a new approach to recruitment, appointments and promotion. We believe that all those improvements and initiatives will mean that fire and rescue services in Scotland are even better placed to make our communities safer.
The bill is the culmination of more than two years of formal consultation, which began in April 2002 with the publication of our first consultation paper, "The Scottish Fire Service of the Future". The paper sought views on a wide range of proposals that were aimed at improving the service and at making the best use of its resources. Its many recommendations received considerable support. The process continued with the publication just over a year ago, on 1 October 2003, of "The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service: Proposals for Legislation". Those proposals were subsequently debated in the Parliament on 8 October 2003.
I am grateful to the Justice 2 Committee and its staff for their careful consideration of the bill and for producing a comprehensive and clear report. I am pleased that the committee has endorsed the principles of the bill and that, in general, the bill and its policy intentions were welcomed by the people who gave evidence. It is particularly encouraging that both the committee and its witnesses were content with the Executive's approach on the provision of a statutory underpinning for the principal functions of the fire and rescue service. The bill provides a flexible means of adding to those functions to reflect change over time. It is good to have some consensus about the way forward in a key public emergency service.
I welcome the constructive recommendations that the committee made. I will of course write to the committee shortly, to respond to its report and to indicate what amendments the Executive intends to lodge at stage 2. There is no doubt that stage 2 will provide an opportunity to examine the issues in more detail and we will continue to listen carefully to members of the committee and to stakeholders.
I turn to some of the main observations that were made in the committee's report. First, I will deal with the comments on the role of chief fire officers. When I gave evidence to the committee, I made it clear that the fire and rescue service is a local authority service that will continue to be managed locally. I believe that the bill strikes the right balance between local and ministerial powers. However, I am happy to reflect further on what the committee and others have said about the need to clarify in the bill the chief fire officers' responsibilities and their relationship with, and accountability to, the fire and rescue authority or the joint fire and rescue board. The committee also asked whether the bill needs to clarify the role of the senior fire officer in relation to the control of incidents involving fires. We will consider that, too.
I note that some committee members had concerns about the power to amalgamate fire and rescue authorities being used to reduce the number of such authorities in Scotland. However, I remind members that the power in question is not new, as it has been carried forward, in a slightly modified form, from the Fire Services Act 1947.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
Good morning. The first item of business is a debate on motion S2M-1960, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, that the general principles of the Fire (Scotland) Bi...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):
Lab
I am delighted to open the debate on the general principles of the Fire (Scotland) Bill on behalf of the Executive. Our partnership agreement gave a commitme...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
Some of members' unease might be to do with the possibility of that power being used to reduce the number of fire control rooms around Scotland, a proposal t...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I will deal with the issue of fire control rooms in a minute; if I may, I will stick to amalgamation.The power to amalgamate fire authorities has existed sin...
Mr Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Does the minister understand that the unease that is shared by members of different parties and by many people outside the Parliament concerns the fact that ...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
There is no intention to rule by diktat. Any action that the Executive took on any such issues would follow thorough consultation and full discussion. We hav...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
There has been a great deal of interest in, and some controversy about, the discussion on the future number of control rooms. I accept some of the assurances...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I would be happy to do that. It is my intention that, after we have reflected on the comments that have been made and done further work on the calculations, ...
Shona Robison (Dundee East) (SNP):
SNP
The minister mentioned that 23 of the 32 local authorities came down on the side of having three control rooms. The question that Mott MacDonald asked was wh...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
No, I do not, because a number of the responses argued for the status quo. The issue now is whether we are prepared to do further work and give the matter fu...
Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
I thank the minister for his clarification of many points and for the tenor and tone of his speech. The fire service has served Scotland and her communities ...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I hope that Mr MacAskill recognises that, as I explained to the committee, only one of the powers that he refers to—that of emergency direction—is exercisabl...
Mr MacAskill:
SNP
I accept that and welcome the tenor of the minister's words. However, the devil is in the detail and we must ask further questions about the use of ministeri...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
Kenny MacAskill has indicated that others in his party will comment on the issue of fire control rooms at some length, but I must point out that the bill is ...
Mr MacAskill:
SNP
The minister's words are factually correct, but many members of the public and many members in this chamber—not just those in my party—are concerned about th...
Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I take this opportunity to thank my fellow committee members, the clerks to the Justice 2 Committee and the witnesses who gave evidence during the stage 1 pr...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I am baffled and would welcome further discussion with Annabel Goldie about exactly how the situation would change. The power has existed since 1947. All we ...
Miss Goldie:
Con
That is the nub of the disagreement between us. My reading of the bill is that it will provide for a ministerial power that could be instigated by the minist...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
I, too, welcome the opportunity to take part in this debate on the stage 1 report on the Fire (Scotland) Bill.A considerable amount of evidence was given to ...
Miss Goldie:
Con
If that is the member's understanding of the situation, will he confirm that that is what section 2(1) says?
Mike Pringle:
LD
That is my interpretation of it. There was considerable discussion of the matter in the committee, and we must take a view. That is my view of the bill as it...
Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
The fire and rescue services—especially the local brigades—are held in high regard by the people of Scotland. The area that I represent has only one full-tim...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
Maureen Macmillan's point relates to an issue that was also raised by Kenny MacAskill. Section 45 clearly states that any negotiating body should include rep...
Maureen Macmillan:
Lab
I am glad of that assurance, as I hope others will be.The Mott MacDonald report has, as the minister knows, caused anxiety in most brigade areas. I ask the m...
Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I know that my colleagues will elaborate on this point, but listening to what the minister had to say about the reduction in the number of control rooms, I s...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
Will the member tell us how many local authorities are represented by those three brigades?
Ms White:
SNP
I was just about to say that the three fire brigades or authorities that indicated that three control rooms would be their preferred option represent 23 loca...
Colin Fox (Lothians) (SSP):
SSP
Two years ago today, the first national fire strike in 25 years began. I was on the picket line at Liberton fire station in Edinburgh. Little did I realise t...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
As a new member of the Justice 2 Committee, I did not have the opportunity to take part in any of the evidence sessions, but I nevertheless welcome the oppor...
Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I heard what the member said about having a single control room, but what is his view on the prospect of having three control rooms?