Chamber
Plenary, 19 Mar 2003
19 Mar 2003 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Charity Law Reform
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on initiating the debate and on the motion, which I signed. I agree with Tricia Marwick that four years is a long time for 50,000 organisations to wait for a definition of and help with their status in Scots law.
I will give an example of the problems that the lack of a definition has caused. In the chamber during the passage of the Water Industry (Scotland) Act 2002, the Executive promised relief on water charges. However, the criteria for water charges relief are so narrow that only 4,000 of the 50,000 charitable organisations qualify under the regulations, whereas the Executive announced that 80 per cent of organisations would qualify. That is an enormous problem that the Executive must deal with and which can be addressed only by charity law reform. That is one reason why we should get down to charity law reform as soon as possible.
Charities and trustees lack knowledge about their legal status. Charities were recently invited to apply for grants to help them with village halls. Of those who filled in forms and got them back, 50 per cent found to their intense surprise and horror that they were personally liable for their charity's debts. They were unaware of that because we do not have a proper definition of charities or a proper body of law to which people can refer.
I apologise for leaving the debate early, but as co-convener of the cross-party group on architecture and the built environment—that is a long name to remember—I am standing in for Rhona Brankin at a meeting of the group, because she is not terribly well. I will have to dash off to help.
Jackie Baillie said that the Executive has been good about co-operating with and talking to charities, but the view has been expressed to me that the Executive has recently gone into hugger-mugger and is talking to itself. It has not responded much to charities' inquiries about recent charity law developments. When asked for further advice on charities' position in Scots law, the Executive's response was that it would give charities money to produce an advice handbook for trustees. I believe that that is already being done, but on what basis can a handbook for trustees be produced when we hope for new charity law?
My plea to the Executive is for the promised charity law reform to occur in the first year of the new Government. Whether the Executive forms the new Government is a matter to be settled on 1 May. Let us have some promises from somewhere—preferably from everywhere—that the Parliament will address the issue.
I will give an example of the problems that the lack of a definition has caused. In the chamber during the passage of the Water Industry (Scotland) Act 2002, the Executive promised relief on water charges. However, the criteria for water charges relief are so narrow that only 4,000 of the 50,000 charitable organisations qualify under the regulations, whereas the Executive announced that 80 per cent of organisations would qualify. That is an enormous problem that the Executive must deal with and which can be addressed only by charity law reform. That is one reason why we should get down to charity law reform as soon as possible.
Charities and trustees lack knowledge about their legal status. Charities were recently invited to apply for grants to help them with village halls. Of those who filled in forms and got them back, 50 per cent found to their intense surprise and horror that they were personally liable for their charity's debts. They were unaware of that because we do not have a proper definition of charities or a proper body of law to which people can refer.
I apologise for leaving the debate early, but as co-convener of the cross-party group on architecture and the built environment—that is a long name to remember—I am standing in for Rhona Brankin at a meeting of the group, because she is not terribly well. I will have to dash off to help.
Jackie Baillie said that the Executive has been good about co-operating with and talking to charities, but the view has been expressed to me that the Executive has recently gone into hugger-mugger and is talking to itself. It has not responded much to charities' inquiries about recent charity law developments. When asked for further advice on charities' position in Scots law, the Executive's response was that it would give charities money to produce an advice handbook for trustees. I believe that that is already being done, but on what basis can a handbook for trustees be produced when we hope for new charity law?
My plea to the Executive is for the promised charity law reform to occur in the first year of the new Government. Whether the Executive forms the new Government is a matter to be settled on 1 May. Let us have some promises from somewhere—preferably from everywhere—that the Parliament will address the issue.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
The final item of business today is a members' business debate on motion S1M-3961, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on reform of charity law.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament shares the Scottish Executive's commitment to progressing the reform of charity law; recognises that this will assist in developing the c...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
As members know all too well, charities form a vital part of Scottish life. Their unique qualities mean that they are especially well equipped to provide to ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Because the stage 3 debate on the Mental Health (Care and Treatment) (Scotland) Bill runs on tomorrow, the clock runs on as well. I will advise members when ...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I apologise for having to rush off before the debate ends.It will not have escaped Jackie Baillie's notice that I have not signed the motion that we are deba...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
I declare an interest, as I am the trustee of a small charitable trust. I am also active in some other charities, including the Edinburgh support group of Ho...
The Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport (Mike Watson):
Lab
Yes, why not? I was just responding to Lord James Douglas-Hamilton's comments on the act the name of which I will not repeat: it seemed to me to be the mothe...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
Con
I thank Mike Watson for his contribution.We need easily accessible information to help to protect against bogus charities and to make it easy for members of ...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on getting the debate. Her personal commitment, as a minister and as a back bencher, to charities is certainly well known. She ...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on initiating the debate and on the motion, which I signed. I agree with Tricia Marwick that four years is a long time for 50,0...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab):
Lab
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on bringing the debate to the Parliament. I had been looking forward to it, but then we heard from Tricia Marwick and Donald Go...
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Johann Lamont:
Lab
If the member lets me finish my point.In its deliberations on the voluntary sector, the Social Justice Committee said that there had to be progress on charit...
Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Like my colleague Tricia Marwick, I did not sign up to Jackie Baillie's motion. That was not because I did not want it to be discussed—I want it to be discus...
Brian Fitzpatrick (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab):
Lab
I speak with some trepidation, given the substantial experience of many of the members who have spoken in the debate and their contributions to the work of c...
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Brian Fitzpatrick:
Lab
On gracelessness? Certainly.
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
That is the kind of attitude that I have problems with—the attitude that, as the debate is about the voluntary sector and charity law, it is not about politi...
Brian Fitzpatrick:
Lab
I am obliged to Linda Fabiani for that corroboration of my point.I wanted to make a point about the way in which people come to be involved in charities and ...
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
Name one.
Brian Fitzpatrick:
Lab
I was thinking of 1603, actually.The opportunity to conduct that overhaul will be available to us in the next session of Parliament. It can be done through a...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):
Lab
Jackie Baillie has done us a favour in giving us an opportunity to focus yet again on the critical role that charities and voluntary organisations play in th...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
The Minister for Social Justice and I were both members of the Social Justice Committee before Johann Lamont became a member of the committee. At that time, ...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I was about to say that, as far as using the same definition or a different one is concerned, we have ruled nothing out. However, we should bear it in mind t...
Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab):
Lab
As Johann Lamont pointed out, the voluntary sector does not just include organisations that are involved in social justice; it covers sport, the environment,...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I agree entirely with that comment.I want to return to points that members made about the need for legislation and about putting the regulator on to a statut...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
Con
Is the subject suitable for a committee investigation, or even a committee bill, given that such bills have been one of the Parliament's triumphs?
Hugh Henry:
Lab
That is entirely a matter for the new committees of the next Parliament. Over the first four years of the Parliament, the committees have demonstrated their ...
Meeting closed at 17:46.