Chamber
Plenary, 05 Sep 2002
05 Sep 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Prisons
I am pleased that Lord James welcomes the announcements that I have made, particularly with regard to Peterhead. The way in which the consultation procedure progressed is a tribute to the Parliament and what many of us who fought to establish the Parliament said that it should do. There is no monopoly of wisdom in the Government. As I said on the day on which we launched the estates review, if we put out matters for consultation we will listen. As I said in my statement, one of the things to which I gave much weight—and I accept that in the past I made quite a bit of the distance to Peterhead and the difficulties that that caused for families in visiting—was the cogent and compelling evidence from families of prisoners at Peterhead that they found some benefit in getting out of their communities to visit a prison where there were only sex offenders. That was an important factor, as was the Spencer report, which was published today. I agree that that shows how a consultative mechanism can work properly.
I accept that there will be people for whom prison is entirely appropriate, either because they pose a threat to the community or because the seriousness and gravity of their offence is such that the community expects a custodial sentence to be imposed. Our obligation is to accept the people sent to prison by the courts. That is why we must address overcrowding. Addressing the problem is not a luxury and we cannot simply wish it away. We would like to see prisoner numbers reduced, but we are faced with increasing numbers, particularly in remand prisoners over the past year, and we must address that. That is why I have indicated that although the private prison to be procured will have to be fully flexible, our intention, as far ahead as I can see, is that the prison will cater for remand prisoners. That is why we want needs assessment and drugs detoxification facilities built into that prison.
As I made clear in my statement, there is a role for proper partnership between the public and private sectors in the provision of services. Above all, the public want good-quality services and value for money.
I accept that there will be people for whom prison is entirely appropriate, either because they pose a threat to the community or because the seriousness and gravity of their offence is such that the community expects a custodial sentence to be imposed. Our obligation is to accept the people sent to prison by the courts. That is why we must address overcrowding. Addressing the problem is not a luxury and we cannot simply wish it away. We would like to see prisoner numbers reduced, but we are faced with increasing numbers, particularly in remand prisoners over the past year, and we must address that. That is why I have indicated that although the private prison to be procured will have to be fully flexible, our intention, as far ahead as I can see, is that the prison will cater for remand prisoners. That is why we want needs assessment and drugs detoxification facilities built into that prison.
As I made clear in my statement, there is a role for proper partnership between the public and private sectors in the provision of services. Above all, the public want good-quality services and value for money.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
We begin today with the ministerial statement on the prison estates review.
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
Scotland needs prisons fit for the 21st century. We consulted on proposals to achieve that goal, we have listened to what people said and we have considered ...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
We are now nearly three years into what has been one of the worst conducted parliamentary reviews I have ever seen. Three years of shambles is no credit to t...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I am grateful to Ms Cunningham for offering a welcome to the fact that Peterhead is not to close.As her questions went on, we saw clearly how bereft the SNP ...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
I welcome the minister's decision on Peterhead, which is a victory for common sense. The STOP: Closure of Peterhead Prison Officers Partners committee has wr...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I am pleased that Lord James welcomes the announcements that I have made, particularly with regard to Peterhead. The way in which the consultation procedure ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
I am bound to welcome the £110 million investment in the public sector prisons and the modernisation of some of the draconian conditions that prisoners and s...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I recognise the concerns about terms and conditions that Pauline McNeill has raised on many occasions. She will recall that the contract establishing Kilmarn...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I welcome the minister's statement and the changes made since the prison estates review. They show that consultation with the general public and the views of...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I welcome the fact that Donald Gorrie welcomes the statement. Donald Gorrie referred to some media reports and I know that sometimes there are those who seek...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
Unusually, the list of members wanting to ask questions goes off the bottom of my screen. I appeal for short exchanges in order to allow more members to speak.
Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I want to raise two issues. The minister made great play of reducing the prison population by some 700, using alternatives to custody. Will the minister conf...
Mr Wallace:
LD
Current investment at Barlinnie and in new house blocks at Polmont and Edinburgh is not included in the £110 million. On what is included in the £110 million...
Michael Matheson:
SNP
So it is not new money.
Mr Wallace:
LD
It is money that has not previously been committed to capital investment. New money will come in the spending review—about £15 million.
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):
SSP
Is that extra money or is it already in the system?
Mr Wallace:
LD
That is included in the £110 million; it is new money.We are rolling forward the £20 million capital investment that is currently in the baseline. That money...
Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the minister's statement and in particular the recognition of the need to modernise the prison estate. Will the minister agree to meet me, Premier ...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I preface my answer by saying that I was careful to say that we are not making any announcements or decisions today about sites. However, I recognise—Margare...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome the statement on Peterhead as far as it goes. However, there is no commitment to new build there. The minister said that there is a saving of £12.5...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I suggest to Christine Grahame that she goes to Polmont and Edinburgh to see the new house blocks that are currently being built and will be completed within...
Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
The minister has talked about the partnership agreement with the unions in the prison service and there has been a lot of talk about flexible working conditi...
Mr Wallace:
LD
What I have said is clear. We want to take forward the chief inspector of prisons' recommendation that we examine ways in which to improve performance manage...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
Does the minister agree that the frank admission in his statement and in his answer to Mr Matheson that prison numbers will rise is indicative of the fact th...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I welcome what is implied Conservative party support for alternatives to custody. That is encouraging. However, I cannot accept the premise of Mr Aitken's qu...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
We suggested tagging.
Mr Wallace:
LD
I indicated that in the first four months of the roll-out across Scotland of electronic tagging orders—which Mr Gallie properly points out were introduced by...
George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD):
LD
I congratulate the minister on his statement. He has demonstrated a genuine willingness to listen and respond to consultation. As he said, the situation is n...
Mr Wallace:
LD
Having made the announcement today, I believe that it is only fair that the SPS management and the trade union side have a proper opportunity to work up prop...
Tommy Sheridan:
SSP
Does the minister agree that his statement was nothing more than a testimony of failure? There has been a failure to reduce prisoner numbers generally and a ...