Chamber
Plenary, 09 May 2002
09 May 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Nurses
Members of all parties have produced statistics on a variety of issues, such as the number of nurses who leave the profession, the number of nursing students who leave before completing their courses, nurses' ages and nurses' pay. In my opinion, the principal issue is the individual nurse and what the nurse represents in terms of hospital care.
Last week, when I visited someone in Hairmyres hospital, I found that there were major problems in the contracts for catering and cleaning. I was in a ward where the food was absolutely abysmal—I would not have fed it to a pig, never mind to a patient—and where the bathroom had been cleaned only once in a whole week. The person who stood up for the patients and who caused the most fuss was the nurse in charge of the ward, supported by her staff. She was prepared to put her neck and her career on the line for her patients. We have to recognise that kind of dedication.
The nursing profession does not just want lip service from the Parliament and the Executive about how much we value our nurses. We will have to take action to prove that we value them. Until we do, all the figures on the student drop-out rates, on the lack of retention and on morale problems will continue to get worse.
The major, although not the only, bone of contention for nurses is undoubtedly pay. The major bone of contention between the Executive and the Scottish National Party is over how we should deal with the issue of nurses' pay. The Executive believes that there is only one solution, which they allege to be a United Kingdom solution. That solution is to pay every nurse the length and breadth of the UK exactly the same.
That fails to recognise that, south of the border, special rates are already paid. Ever since the health service was created, special rates have been paid in London in recognition of higher living costs. There are also special allowances to boost recruitment and retention in areas of staff shortages—for example, among low-paid nursing auxiliaries, nurse consultants and matrons. Discretionary points will also be given to entice those who have reached the top of their field in nursing to remain in the NHS. All that proves to me that differential pay structures are not new. We should not automatically react against the idea.
We face a particular situation in Scotland. If we do not solve the nursing shortage and the morale problem, all the money that we spend on the health service will not cure its ills. That is why we believe that it would be perfectly fair and acceptable to have a differential pay structure to recognise the special problems in Scotland. Until we have one, the problems of the health service will not be properly addressed. I hope that when the minister winds up—whichever minister it is—we will be told why it is okay to have differentials south of the border but not north of the border.
If figures are coming out tomorrow, why can the minister not give them to the chamber today, rather than making us wait for the Daily Record or The Herald tomorrow morning?
Last week, when I visited someone in Hairmyres hospital, I found that there were major problems in the contracts for catering and cleaning. I was in a ward where the food was absolutely abysmal—I would not have fed it to a pig, never mind to a patient—and where the bathroom had been cleaned only once in a whole week. The person who stood up for the patients and who caused the most fuss was the nurse in charge of the ward, supported by her staff. She was prepared to put her neck and her career on the line for her patients. We have to recognise that kind of dedication.
The nursing profession does not just want lip service from the Parliament and the Executive about how much we value our nurses. We will have to take action to prove that we value them. Until we do, all the figures on the student drop-out rates, on the lack of retention and on morale problems will continue to get worse.
The major, although not the only, bone of contention for nurses is undoubtedly pay. The major bone of contention between the Executive and the Scottish National Party is over how we should deal with the issue of nurses' pay. The Executive believes that there is only one solution, which they allege to be a United Kingdom solution. That solution is to pay every nurse the length and breadth of the UK exactly the same.
That fails to recognise that, south of the border, special rates are already paid. Ever since the health service was created, special rates have been paid in London in recognition of higher living costs. There are also special allowances to boost recruitment and retention in areas of staff shortages—for example, among low-paid nursing auxiliaries, nurse consultants and matrons. Discretionary points will also be given to entice those who have reached the top of their field in nursing to remain in the NHS. All that proves to me that differential pay structures are not new. We should not automatically react against the idea.
We face a particular situation in Scotland. If we do not solve the nursing shortage and the morale problem, all the money that we spend on the health service will not cure its ills. That is why we believe that it would be perfectly fair and acceptable to have a differential pay structure to recognise the special problems in Scotland. Until we have one, the problems of the health service will not be properly addressed. I hope that when the minister winds up—whichever minister it is—we will be told why it is okay to have differentials south of the border but not north of the border.
If figures are coming out tomorrow, why can the minister not give them to the chamber today, rather than making us wait for the Daily Record or The Herald tomorrow morning?
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-3078, in the name of Malcolm Chisholm, on action to recruit, retain and value nurses, and two amendments ...
The Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm):
Lab
The delivery of health services for patients requires a combination of sustained investment and reform—investment in staff, equipment, facilities and new tre...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):
SSP
Will Malcolm Chisholm give way?
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
In a moment. I need to make more progress first.We want all those who qualify to secure employment within NHS Scotland, if they wish to do so. We have theref...
Tommy Sheridan:
SSP
My question relates specifically to nurses' bursaries. Given his experience of speaking at various conferences, the minister will surely accept that the bigg...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
There will be a further increase in bursaries this year. I am aware of the issue that Tommy Sheridan raises, and I am sure that it will come up at the specia...
Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
Time will not allow me to take an intervention. I have only one and a half minutes left.Flexibility is another key issue that has been raised at nursing conv...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I thank nurses, midwives and health visitors for the enormous contribution that they make to patient care and the national health service. I also pay tribute...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
Another week, another health debate, and this week another health minister, too. I welcome this debate on recruiting, retaining and valuing nurses, given tha...
Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I am pleased to speak in the debate to acknowledge the work that Scotland's nurses do in international nurses week and throughout the year, and to highlight ...
Brian Adam:
SNP
Will Margaret Smith give way?
Mrs Smith:
LD
I will not give way. I have no time. I have only five minutes.
Brian Adam:
SNP
There will be no debate if she does not give way.
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
Order.
Mrs Smith:
LD
In areas in which the Scottish Executive has the power to make a positive difference to conditions, it has been listening to the RCN's campaign and has made ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
We now come to the open debate. We are obviously tight for time, but I will allow speeches of four minutes with some extra time for interventions.
Sarah Boyack (Edinburgh Central) (Lab):
Lab
I agree with other members that it is highly appropriate for us to hold this debate during international nurses week. Since 1997, Labour has delivered 20,000...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
Will Sarah Boyack give way?
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
No, thank you, Ms Sturgeon. Those concerns are a legacy of what the Tories did to the health service. The recent pronouncements of Liam Fox show the Tories' ...
Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con):
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
I will take a brief intervention.
Ben Wallace:
Con
How does Ms Boyack reconcile her fine words and the fine words of the Scottish Executive with the fact that the chancellor will take £5.8 million out of the ...
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
I have not met any nurse who is unhappy about the massive increase that everyone recognises is going into the NHS. We need to talk up the fact that the money...
Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
Nurses now take on greater roles and greater responsibilities than ever before, but the average age of nurses is increasing. The average age in Scotland is n...
Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
The contribution that our nurses make to our health care system is phenomenal. They are the backbone of the NHS and without them the NHS would crumble. There...
Brian Fitzpatrick (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab):
Lab
Jamie McGrigor's contribution—or perhaps what was omitted from it—speaks volumes about the lack of consensus in Scotland on sustained and rising investment i...
Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Members of all parties have produced statistics on a variety of issues, such as the number of nurses who leave the profession, the number of nursing students...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I will concentrate on two points—job satisfaction and prisons. Three things make a job worth having and attract people to it: pay and conditions; the public ...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I declare an interest as a member of Unison. As a nurse, I am delighted to speak in today's debate. During my years in the health service, I considered mysel...