Chamber
Plenary, 27 Mar 2002
27 Mar 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
MSP Numbers
It is quite clear that the lean and mean Tories have never left Scotland. [Members: "Hear, hear."]
The SNP has not lodged an amendment to the motion—a rare but not unheard of position for the SNP to take. It is important that the Scottish Parliament speaks with its strongest voice today. Our message is, "Let Scotland decide and let the Parliament get on with its work."
The key reason why people wanted the Parliament in the first place was that they were fed up with London telling us what to do about our affairs. The size of the Parliament is our affair. The Scottish Parliament should decide its future. Let Scotland decide and let the Parliament get on with its work of serving the people of Scotland.
Patricia Ferguson set out the operational reasons for keeping the number of MSPs at 129. I agree with the points that she made and I will not repeat them in the limited time that is available to me. However, I want to make some points that have not yet been covered.
I was interested in the Executive's argument that any reduction in the number of MSPs could reduce the amount of scrutiny of the Executive. That would be dangerous for democracy. It is also important to note that a reduction in the number of MSPs would undermine the principle of power sharing between the Executive, the Parliament and the people, which I mentioned when I intervened during David McLetchie's speech. Any reduction along the lines proposed by the Tories would cut the proportionality of the Parliament and would mean that two parties that are currently represented in Parliament would not be represented in a future session of Parliament. Some people may not want them to be represented in the Parliament, but that is part of the argument behind proportionality in the Scottish Parliament.
We should all have a bit of humility. We should remember that the Parliament is for the people, not for the politicians. We are temporary members—some are more temporary than others, including those who continue with their anti-Scottish rants. The Conservatives are firing at the wrong target; their criticisms are criticisms of the Executive, not of the Parliament. It is clear that the number of ministers can be cut without cutting the number of MSPs.
The SNP has not lodged an amendment to the motion—a rare but not unheard of position for the SNP to take. It is important that the Scottish Parliament speaks with its strongest voice today. Our message is, "Let Scotland decide and let the Parliament get on with its work."
The key reason why people wanted the Parliament in the first place was that they were fed up with London telling us what to do about our affairs. The size of the Parliament is our affair. The Scottish Parliament should decide its future. Let Scotland decide and let the Parliament get on with its work of serving the people of Scotland.
Patricia Ferguson set out the operational reasons for keeping the number of MSPs at 129. I agree with the points that she made and I will not repeat them in the limited time that is available to me. However, I want to make some points that have not yet been covered.
I was interested in the Executive's argument that any reduction in the number of MSPs could reduce the amount of scrutiny of the Executive. That would be dangerous for democracy. It is also important to note that a reduction in the number of MSPs would undermine the principle of power sharing between the Executive, the Parliament and the people, which I mentioned when I intervened during David McLetchie's speech. Any reduction along the lines proposed by the Tories would cut the proportionality of the Parliament and would mean that two parties that are currently represented in Parliament would not be represented in a future session of Parliament. Some people may not want them to be represented in the Parliament, but that is part of the argument behind proportionality in the Scottish Parliament.
We should all have a bit of humility. We should remember that the Parliament is for the people, not for the politicians. We are temporary members—some are more temporary than others, including those who continue with their anti-Scottish rants. The Conservatives are firing at the wrong target; their criticisms are criticisms of the Executive, not of the Parliament. It is clear that the number of ministers can be cut without cutting the number of MSPs.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2940, in the name of Patricia Ferguson, on the size of the Scottish Parliament, and an amendment to the m...
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Patricia Ferguson):
Lab
The arrangements for elections to the Scottish Parliament, including the size of the Parliament, are a reserved matter. The effect of those arrangements as t...
Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
I support everything that the minister has said. The reduction in the number of committee members has, on some occasions, made committees totter on the edge ...
Patricia Ferguson:
Lab
I thank the member for that. If the committee structure were to be jeopardised in such a way, there would be serious implications for the Executive's legisla...
Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West):
*
If we want Scottish parliamentary constituencies to be coterminous with the Westminster constituencies while retaining a proportionality and the Parliament's...
Patricia Ferguson:
Lab
I am sure that Mr Canavan will make those points in his submission to the consultation.It would, of course, be possible for any problems that may arise—the k...
David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Conservative members are proud to stand alone today against the self-serving consensus of Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the SNP that seeks to preserve th...
Rhona Brankin (Midlothian) (Lab):
Lab
Will the member give way?
David McLetchie:
Con
I will not.We want a leaner, more focused Parliament that concentrates not on the politically correct nonsense that has been our diet on far too many of the ...
Rhona Brankin:
Lab
Does Mr McLetchie agree that the number of MSPs that the Conservatives wanted was a big zero?
David McLetchie:
Con
I do. However, the fact that we have 19 Conservative MSPs is one of the few redeeming features of the Parliament.
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
Will the member give way?
David McLetchie:
Con
I will not.We do not need 129 members. That is borne out not only by my experience, but by the experience of a former distinguished member of the Parliament,...
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
I do not know whether David McLetchie understands the principles of the Parliament. We have the Executive, the Parliament and the people and there is meant t...
David McLetchie:
Con
We have certainly long argued for an alternative programme for the Parliament to the one proposed by the Executive. I agree with Fiona Hyslop on that point.W...
Brian Fitzpatrick (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab) rose—
Lab
David McLetchie:
Con
Mr Fitzpatrick should listen to this. The Labour members' colleague Mr Martin O'Neill, the Westminster member for Ochil, said on 3 March:"We should look at t...
Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP) rose—
SNP
David McLetchie:
Con
I will not take an intervention. By reducing the number of ministers and streamlining the committees from 17 to 13, in line with proposals previously made in...
Patricia Ferguson rose—
Lab
David McLetchie:
Con
I will not take an intervention; I have given way enough already and answered plenty of questions. It might be of interest to members of other parties to not...
Robin Harper:
Green
Will the member give way?
David McLetchie:
Con
No, thank you. I ask members to listen to the arithmetic. Under our proposals, that would increase to roughly 30,000 people per parliamentary politician. How...
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
It is quite clear that the lean and mean Tories have never left Scotland. Members: "Hear, hear." The SNP has not lodged an amendment to the motion—a rare but...
David McLetchie:
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
I will give way in a second.The people will not thank the Conservatives for interfering with the Parliament that they voted for in 1999 after reading the lea...
David McLetchie:
Con
Is it the policy of the Scottish National Party substantially to reduce the number of ministers in the Scottish Executive?
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
There is a strong case for a review of the operation of the Scottish Executive. All questions of ministerial responsibilities would be up for consideration i...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
The issue that we are discussing should not be an issue. As even Mr McLetchie must recognise, there is a certain paradox in the fact that the leader of a par...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
We have time for three speeches of four minutes or possibly four speeches of three minutes.