Chamber
Plenary, 27 Mar 2002
27 Mar 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
MSP Numbers
I thank the member for that.
If the committee structure were to be jeopardised in such a way, there would be serious implications for the Executive's legislative programme and for the capacity of committees and back-bench members to introduce their own bills, as they have begun to do. The ability of committees to scrutinise proposals for legislation, to hold the Executive to account and to conduct independent inquiries would be severely curtailed. So too would the ability of individual MSPs to serve the needs of their constituents. In short, the ability of the Parliament to function effectively would be compromised, in my view quite significantly.
The consultative steering group established the principles on which the Parliament is founded: accessibility, transparency, the sharing of power and equal opportunities. Those principles would be seriously jeopardised if we were to reduce the size of the legislature.
We have only one chamber, so the work of our committees takes on a particular importance. Their role in scrutinising Executive legislation is vital. So too is their taking of evidence from civil Scotland and the dialogue that they have around Scotland. All that would be jeopardised by a reduction in the number of MSPs.
Our commitment to equal opportunities could also be threatened by a reduction in the number of members. We are rightly proud of the number of women in this Parliament: at 32.7 per cent, we have the third highest proportion of women representatives of any Parliament in the world. If the number of MSPs were reduced, our ability to observe family-friendly hours would be threatened. That would impact not just on members, but on our accessibility to our constituents. The work that we do is not just about being in the chamber; it is also about our ability to visit community groups, to speak to individual constituents, to hear their views and to work with them in our communities.
That, in a nutshell, is the argument for retaining the Parliament at its present size. The present arrangements represent a consensus that emerged after much debate over a period of years, starting with the work of the Scottish Constitutional Convention.
The Parliament can, and does, hold the Executive to account, not only by scrutinising its proposals for legislation, but through parliamentary debates, questions and ad hoc inquiries. There is a proper democratic balance between the Executive and the Parliament.
What, then, are the countervailing arguments that led the UK Government and Parliament to reach the contrary view during the passage of the Scotland Bill? The key consideration was the risk of public confusion if there were two sets of parliamentary constituencies, one for Westminster and the other for Holyrood. There could also be practical difficulties for local authorities, returning officers and the political parties.
Those are legitimate concerns, but electors already have to contend with different boundaries for local, parliamentary and European elections, not to mention different voting systems. There is no evidence to suggest that that has caused any serious problems. The electorate are increasingly sophisticated and I see no reason why differences in parliamentary constituencies would cause any great difficulty in practice.
If the committee structure were to be jeopardised in such a way, there would be serious implications for the Executive's legislative programme and for the capacity of committees and back-bench members to introduce their own bills, as they have begun to do. The ability of committees to scrutinise proposals for legislation, to hold the Executive to account and to conduct independent inquiries would be severely curtailed. So too would the ability of individual MSPs to serve the needs of their constituents. In short, the ability of the Parliament to function effectively would be compromised, in my view quite significantly.
The consultative steering group established the principles on which the Parliament is founded: accessibility, transparency, the sharing of power and equal opportunities. Those principles would be seriously jeopardised if we were to reduce the size of the legislature.
We have only one chamber, so the work of our committees takes on a particular importance. Their role in scrutinising Executive legislation is vital. So too is their taking of evidence from civil Scotland and the dialogue that they have around Scotland. All that would be jeopardised by a reduction in the number of MSPs.
Our commitment to equal opportunities could also be threatened by a reduction in the number of members. We are rightly proud of the number of women in this Parliament: at 32.7 per cent, we have the third highest proportion of women representatives of any Parliament in the world. If the number of MSPs were reduced, our ability to observe family-friendly hours would be threatened. That would impact not just on members, but on our accessibility to our constituents. The work that we do is not just about being in the chamber; it is also about our ability to visit community groups, to speak to individual constituents, to hear their views and to work with them in our communities.
That, in a nutshell, is the argument for retaining the Parliament at its present size. The present arrangements represent a consensus that emerged after much debate over a period of years, starting with the work of the Scottish Constitutional Convention.
The Parliament can, and does, hold the Executive to account, not only by scrutinising its proposals for legislation, but through parliamentary debates, questions and ad hoc inquiries. There is a proper democratic balance between the Executive and the Parliament.
What, then, are the countervailing arguments that led the UK Government and Parliament to reach the contrary view during the passage of the Scotland Bill? The key consideration was the risk of public confusion if there were two sets of parliamentary constituencies, one for Westminster and the other for Holyrood. There could also be practical difficulties for local authorities, returning officers and the political parties.
Those are legitimate concerns, but electors already have to contend with different boundaries for local, parliamentary and European elections, not to mention different voting systems. There is no evidence to suggest that that has caused any serious problems. The electorate are increasingly sophisticated and I see no reason why differences in parliamentary constituencies would cause any great difficulty in practice.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2940, in the name of Patricia Ferguson, on the size of the Scottish Parliament, and an amendment to the m...
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Patricia Ferguson):
Lab
The arrangements for elections to the Scottish Parliament, including the size of the Parliament, are a reserved matter. The effect of those arrangements as t...
Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
I support everything that the minister has said. The reduction in the number of committee members has, on some occasions, made committees totter on the edge ...
Patricia Ferguson:
Lab
I thank the member for that. If the committee structure were to be jeopardised in such a way, there would be serious implications for the Executive's legisla...
Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West):
*
If we want Scottish parliamentary constituencies to be coterminous with the Westminster constituencies while retaining a proportionality and the Parliament's...
Patricia Ferguson:
Lab
I am sure that Mr Canavan will make those points in his submission to the consultation.It would, of course, be possible for any problems that may arise—the k...
David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Conservative members are proud to stand alone today against the self-serving consensus of Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the SNP that seeks to preserve th...
Rhona Brankin (Midlothian) (Lab):
Lab
Will the member give way?
David McLetchie:
Con
I will not.We want a leaner, more focused Parliament that concentrates not on the politically correct nonsense that has been our diet on far too many of the ...
Rhona Brankin:
Lab
Does Mr McLetchie agree that the number of MSPs that the Conservatives wanted was a big zero?
David McLetchie:
Con
I do. However, the fact that we have 19 Conservative MSPs is one of the few redeeming features of the Parliament.
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
Will the member give way?
David McLetchie:
Con
I will not.We do not need 129 members. That is borne out not only by my experience, but by the experience of a former distinguished member of the Parliament,...
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
I do not know whether David McLetchie understands the principles of the Parliament. We have the Executive, the Parliament and the people and there is meant t...
David McLetchie:
Con
We have certainly long argued for an alternative programme for the Parliament to the one proposed by the Executive. I agree with Fiona Hyslop on that point.W...
Brian Fitzpatrick (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab) rose—
Lab
David McLetchie:
Con
Mr Fitzpatrick should listen to this. The Labour members' colleague Mr Martin O'Neill, the Westminster member for Ochil, said on 3 March:"We should look at t...
Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP) rose—
SNP
David McLetchie:
Con
I will not take an intervention. By reducing the number of ministers and streamlining the committees from 17 to 13, in line with proposals previously made in...
Patricia Ferguson rose—
Lab
David McLetchie:
Con
I will not take an intervention; I have given way enough already and answered plenty of questions. It might be of interest to members of other parties to not...
Robin Harper:
Green
Will the member give way?
David McLetchie:
Con
No, thank you. I ask members to listen to the arithmetic. Under our proposals, that would increase to roughly 30,000 people per parliamentary politician. How...
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
It is quite clear that the lean and mean Tories have never left Scotland. Members: "Hear, hear." The SNP has not lodged an amendment to the motion—a rare but...
David McLetchie:
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
I will give way in a second.The people will not thank the Conservatives for interfering with the Parliament that they voted for in 1999 after reading the lea...
David McLetchie:
Con
Is it the policy of the Scottish National Party substantially to reduce the number of ministers in the Scottish Executive?
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
There is a strong case for a review of the operation of the Scottish Executive. All questions of ministerial responsibilities would be up for consideration i...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
The issue that we are discussing should not be an issue. As even Mr McLetchie must recognise, there is a certain paradox in the fact that the leader of a par...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
We have time for three speeches of four minutes or possibly four speeches of three minutes.