Chamber
Plenary, 21 Mar 2002
21 Mar 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Prison Estates Review
I will take Phil Gallie's points in turn. Projections of numbers are not accurate predictions or precise science. The further one goes more than two or three years ahead, the more difficult it is to make accurate projections. We are conscious of that. Phil Gallie can study the details, as we published the basis of the statistical projections.
The numbers have increased significantly in the past 12 to 18 months. There is no apparent reason for that, but several points must be considered. There is a higher detection rate now than there has been at any time since the second world war. We are focusing on dealing with serious violent crime and drugs crime. For example, the Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency is becoming more effective in targeting big dealers, who tend to get longer prison sentences. Strathclyde police's spotlight initiative for safer streets has been effective in finding people who carry offensive weapons, which is also the kind of crime that attracts higher sentences. Therefore, the number of prisoners who are serving longer sentences is increasing. We must take account of that fact. However, much is being done to promote non-custodial sentences for less serious crimes, for which custody is often inappropriate.
Phil Gallie asked about commissioning. He is right to point out that there were many difficulties in the commissioning of Shotts prison, whereas the period from the signing of the contract to the opening of Kilmarnock prison was relatively quick. The chief inspector of prisons for Scotland said in his 2000 report on Kilmarnock prison:
"Following an initial, turbulent period, HMP Kilmarnock has settled quickly and is enjoying a period of stability, due to a combination of generally sound preparation, co-operation with other parts of the SPS and a great deal of hard work and determination."
Phil Gallie also mentioned drugs. I did not think that I was being critical of Kilmarnock in terms of drugs. I indicated that mandatory testing for drugs finds about the same incidence in Kilmarnock as in other comparable establishments such as Edinburgh and Perth. I gave that figure not to criticise in any way, but to show that the problem is not peculiar to the private sector. In comparable public sector prisons, the figure is much the same. It is important to note that in between 80 and 90 per cent of prisoner receptions in Scotland's prisons there are indications of current drug abuse. The fact that that is driven down to 24 to 25 per cent in prisons is a remarkable achievement of prison officers and the work that is done in Scotland's prisons.
The numbers have increased significantly in the past 12 to 18 months. There is no apparent reason for that, but several points must be considered. There is a higher detection rate now than there has been at any time since the second world war. We are focusing on dealing with serious violent crime and drugs crime. For example, the Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency is becoming more effective in targeting big dealers, who tend to get longer prison sentences. Strathclyde police's spotlight initiative for safer streets has been effective in finding people who carry offensive weapons, which is also the kind of crime that attracts higher sentences. Therefore, the number of prisoners who are serving longer sentences is increasing. We must take account of that fact. However, much is being done to promote non-custodial sentences for less serious crimes, for which custody is often inappropriate.
Phil Gallie asked about commissioning. He is right to point out that there were many difficulties in the commissioning of Shotts prison, whereas the period from the signing of the contract to the opening of Kilmarnock prison was relatively quick. The chief inspector of prisons for Scotland said in his 2000 report on Kilmarnock prison:
"Following an initial, turbulent period, HMP Kilmarnock has settled quickly and is enjoying a period of stability, due to a combination of generally sound preparation, co-operation with other parts of the SPS and a great deal of hard work and determination."
Phil Gallie also mentioned drugs. I did not think that I was being critical of Kilmarnock in terms of drugs. I indicated that mandatory testing for drugs finds about the same incidence in Kilmarnock as in other comparable establishments such as Edinburgh and Perth. I gave that figure not to criticise in any way, but to show that the problem is not peculiar to the private sector. In comparable public sector prisons, the figure is much the same. It is important to note that in between 80 and 90 per cent of prisoner receptions in Scotland's prisons there are indications of current drug abuse. The fact that that is driven down to 24 to 25 per cent in prisons is a remarkable achievement of prison officers and the work that is done in Scotland's prisons.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a statement by Mr Jim Wallace on the prison estates review. The minister will take questions at the end of his statement, so the...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
I would like to outline the Executive's proposals for the future of the prison estate in Scotland, which are being published today for consultation.Prisons a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
The minister will now take questions on the issues that have been raised in his statement. We can be reasonably flexible about time this morning. I have a lo...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
So much for the Liberal Democrat manifesto before the 1999 Scottish Parliament election and new Labour's promises before the 1997 general election.It is an a...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I did not brief anyone on the proposals and no authorised briefing took place—I gave specific instructions that no briefing should take place. It was not roc...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I will allow questions to run beyond the timetabled 30 minutes because of the extensive list of members who want to ask questions. I emphasise that members s...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Is the Deputy First Minister aware that his commitment to private prisons is similar to the conversion on the road to Damascus? Has he forgotten that when th...
Mr Wallace:
LD
James Douglas-Hamilton has used the 15 months to undertake some worthwhile research to find out how various people voted in 1992. I do not deny that the view...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
Although I acknowledge the poor state of the prison estate and the Executive's desire to change it, how can the Minister for Justice expect Parliament to acc...
Mr Wallace:
LD
Pauline McNeill asks how we can justify such a wide difference in costs. The vastness of the difference is one of the reasons for the delay. We wanted to ens...
George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD):
LD
It is clear that the Scottish Executive and the Minister for Justice have spent considerable time investigating the differences between the two models before...
Mr Wallace:
LD
George Lyon correctly points out that the difference in cost is such that, if we were to forgo that £700 million, we would have fewer resources to spend on t...
Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The minister advised that about 670 staff will be affected by the reduction in size of Barlinnie and the closure of Low Moss and Peterhead but that there wil...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I confirm again that there will be no compulsory redundancies among those 670 staff. However, we are talking about something that will happen over three or f...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
Can we have a guarantee on that issue?
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
Order.
Mr Swinney:
SNP
Will there be different rates of pay?
Mr Wallace:
LD
I cannot say that there will be the same rates of pay because, as members know, there are different rates of pay in the private sector. Interruption.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
Order. If Mr Swinney wants to ask a question, he can, like other members, press his button.
Mr Wallace:
LD
We require of any private prison contract that those in custody are securely maintained and that numerous programmes, including education, are delivered. Tho...
Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab):
Lab
Will there be an opportunity to extend Kilmarnock prison? If so, will that provide an opportunity to renegotiate the current contract, thereby addressing the...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I recall that Margaret Jamieson accompanied me on my visit to Kilmarnock prison. On the contract, lessons have been learned and those lessons will be reflect...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I generally welcome the review. I regret the time that it has taken to bring it to Parliament, although I perhaps understand the reasons for that. Given the ...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I will take Phil Gallie's points in turn. Projections of numbers are not accurate predictions or precise science. The further one goes more than two or three...
Henry McLeish (Central Fife) (Lab):
Lab
The statement is important and I sympathise with the Minister for Justice as he tackles the problems, some of which have been neglected for many years. The s...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I invite no one to take that indulgence as an example to be followed.
Mr Wallace:
LD
I thank Henry McLeish for his questions and for taking a keen interest as First Minister in the work that was being done on the prison estates review.As I in...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I am beginning to get pleading notes and there are a lot of members on the list of those who wish to speak. I ask members to make their questions snappy.
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I will press the minister on the question of alternatives to custody. Will he assure us that adequate resources will be made available for providing services...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I give Donald Gorrie the assurance that he seeks. We set considerable store by the development and resourcing of alternatives to custody. The fact that we wi...