Chamber
Plenary, 28 Feb 2002
28 Feb 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Education (Disability Strategies and Pupils' Records) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I will continue the consensus by warmly welcoming the bill. However, it is important that what the bill can achieve is kept in context.
As Jackie Baillie said, we should all cherish the right for any child to have education. Sadly, over the years, many disabled children who have sought to go to their local primary or secondary school have found themselves left at the school gate as the school was not suitable for them because of their disability. Anything that seeks to end such discrimination against young people is welcome.
I will refer to a couple of sections of the bill that require clarification. Section 1(2)(b) refers to "associated services". It appears that that term is a reference to extra-curricular activities that take place within the school campus. It is important to keep in mind that schools can undertake extra-curricular activities outwith the school campus, such as going to a museum. I am aware that museums and other service providers are covered by the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 and that it is difficult for the minister to address the issue. However, we may need to put something in guidance alongside the bill to ensure that when the section is being interpreted it is clear that extra-curricular activities outwith the school campus are also to be considered; when the children go to the museum or elsewhere, a child who has a disability should not be left behind because of a lack of suitable disabled facilities.
Like Jackie Baillie, I welcome the fact that the minister is seeking at stage 2 to lodge an amendment to section 1(3) on alternative formats for the provision of accessibility strategies.
Section 4 makes provision for obtaining records and for those who are providing the records to supply copies and
"to charge such fees as they think fit"
although it adds in brackets
"(not exceeding the cost of supply)".
The Justice 1 Committee has been debating a similar issue in relation to the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Bill. Concern has been expressed that it may be much more costly to obtain such records in an alternative format than it would be to get a photocopy of the records. It is essential that disabled people are not put off requesting the records in an alternative format. The minister might want to reflect on the issue and consult her colleagues who are dealing with the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Bill, because we are anxious to ensure that a charging mechanism that is introduced under that legislation also meets the needs of disabled people and does not discriminate against them in terms of cost.
I will mention a couple of wider issues. I welcome the fact that the bill deals with access to school buildings and the curriculum. Only yesterday, the Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care, Mary Mulligan, and I met an organisation called Playback, which works with young people who require equipment to access facilities such as schools. It is all very well for schools to have disabled access provisions and to talk about access to the curriculum, but many young disabled people cannot get the wheelchair that they require to go to school. As an example, Playback mentioned a young girl who had to wait for more than a year to get the right wheelchair to go to school.
If we are to make school buildings and the curriculum accessible, we must ensure that service providers such as the national health service meet the needs of young disabled people by providing them with equipment that will allow them to use the facilities that the bill will make available.
I want to refer to the continuing problem that a number of local authorities experience in relation to children with special educational needs who are in facilities that are outwith their area. Local authorities cannot accommodate all children in their area. During a recent briefing by Falkirk Council, which a colleague attended, the director of education highlighted the fact that the cost of placing young people with special educational needs outwith the local authority area has increased by 50 per cent in the past year. That trend puts considerable pressure on local authorities that are trying to meet the needs of disabled people who require special educational establishments.
Although I welcome the bill, we must ensure that there is proper joined-up thinking and working in Government departments to ensure that there is a proper package for disabled children, irrespective of which school they attend or which local authority area the school is in. I hope that the minister will take this opportunity to ensure that there is a proper strategy for disabled children, not one that covers only the curriculum and school buildings.
As Jackie Baillie said, we should all cherish the right for any child to have education. Sadly, over the years, many disabled children who have sought to go to their local primary or secondary school have found themselves left at the school gate as the school was not suitable for them because of their disability. Anything that seeks to end such discrimination against young people is welcome.
I will refer to a couple of sections of the bill that require clarification. Section 1(2)(b) refers to "associated services". It appears that that term is a reference to extra-curricular activities that take place within the school campus. It is important to keep in mind that schools can undertake extra-curricular activities outwith the school campus, such as going to a museum. I am aware that museums and other service providers are covered by the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 and that it is difficult for the minister to address the issue. However, we may need to put something in guidance alongside the bill to ensure that when the section is being interpreted it is clear that extra-curricular activities outwith the school campus are also to be considered; when the children go to the museum or elsewhere, a child who has a disability should not be left behind because of a lack of suitable disabled facilities.
Like Jackie Baillie, I welcome the fact that the minister is seeking at stage 2 to lodge an amendment to section 1(3) on alternative formats for the provision of accessibility strategies.
Section 4 makes provision for obtaining records and for those who are providing the records to supply copies and
"to charge such fees as they think fit"
although it adds in brackets
"(not exceeding the cost of supply)".
The Justice 1 Committee has been debating a similar issue in relation to the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Bill. Concern has been expressed that it may be much more costly to obtain such records in an alternative format than it would be to get a photocopy of the records. It is essential that disabled people are not put off requesting the records in an alternative format. The minister might want to reflect on the issue and consult her colleagues who are dealing with the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Bill, because we are anxious to ensure that a charging mechanism that is introduced under that legislation also meets the needs of disabled people and does not discriminate against them in terms of cost.
I will mention a couple of wider issues. I welcome the fact that the bill deals with access to school buildings and the curriculum. Only yesterday, the Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care, Mary Mulligan, and I met an organisation called Playback, which works with young people who require equipment to access facilities such as schools. It is all very well for schools to have disabled access provisions and to talk about access to the curriculum, but many young disabled people cannot get the wheelchair that they require to go to school. As an example, Playback mentioned a young girl who had to wait for more than a year to get the right wheelchair to go to school.
If we are to make school buildings and the curriculum accessible, we must ensure that service providers such as the national health service meet the needs of young disabled people by providing them with equipment that will allow them to use the facilities that the bill will make available.
I want to refer to the continuing problem that a number of local authorities experience in relation to children with special educational needs who are in facilities that are outwith their area. Local authorities cannot accommodate all children in their area. During a recent briefing by Falkirk Council, which a colleague attended, the director of education highlighted the fact that the cost of placing young people with special educational needs outwith the local authority area has increased by 50 per cent in the past year. That trend puts considerable pressure on local authorities that are trying to meet the needs of disabled people who require special educational establishments.
Although I welcome the bill, we must ensure that there is proper joined-up thinking and working in Government departments to ensure that there is a proper package for disabled children, irrespective of which school they attend or which local authority area the school is in. I hope that the minister will take this opportunity to ensure that there is a proper strategy for disabled children, not one that covers only the curriculum and school buildings.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2563, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, on the general principles of the Education (Disability Strategies an...
The Minister for Education and Young People (Cathy Jamieson):
Lab
I am glad to uphold that precedent with your permission, Presiding Officer. I would not otherwise have dared to say that I am glad to see pupils from Belmont...
Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The SNP warmly welcomes the use of primary legislation to introduce education accessibility strategies, and fully supports the bill's general principles. How...
Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
On behalf of the Conservatives, I am pleased to welcome the bill. We welcome it because it aims to improve access to school education for pupils who have dis...
Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
On pupils' records, which form a minor part of the bill, there are two key issues. One issue is confidentiality, which is important, and the other issue is t...
Mr Monteith:
Con
Certainly. I have no difficulty in saying that the authority in question was Fife Council. I do not want to go into more detail, because the matter is curren...
Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
The motion is easy to support. I cannot imagine that anyone would disagree with the bill's general principles, which seek to ensure that responsible authorit...
Michael Russell:
SNP
Mr Jenkins made a valid point about small rural schools. Some authorities might regard those rural schools as too expensive to continue in operation if the a...
Ian Jenkins:
LD
I agree.In the long term, we do ourselves no favours if we gloss over those genuine concerns because they relate to complicated and sensitive issues that rel...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
My colleagues in the Labour party and I have long held the belief that education is the key to unlocking opportunity in later life. It is not the privilege o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I advise members that the prospect is that we may require to bring forward decision time and members' business today. I say that also for the benefit of busi...
Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I will continue the consensus by warmly welcoming the bill. However, it is important that what the bill can achieve is kept in context.As Jackie Baillie said...
Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the bill. Although, considered in isolation, it addresses only one aspect of educational need, it should be seen as one plank in a raft of measures...
Kate Maclean (Dundee West) (Lab):
Lab
The Equal Opportunities Committee considered the bill and contributed to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee's stage 1 report. In an open letter to th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
Before we go on to wrap-up speeches, I inform members that I anticipate that the debate will finish around 4.40 or 4.45. With the agreement of members, I wil...
Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab):
Lab
I am filling in for Karen Gillon at short notice, so I ask members to bear with me.Colleagues from the committee have already identified some of the key issu...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I reiterate Brian Monteith's comment that the Scottish Conservatives welcome the bill.I will make two brief points on disability strategies, both of which re...
Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I also shall be brief. There is overwhelming unanimity in the chamber about the bill. We are now into discussions about the detail of how the bill will proce...
The Deputy Minister for Education and Young People (Nicol Stephen):
LD
I would like to continue the constructive tone. I agree with Michael Russell's final remarks about the spirit in which the bill has been debated so far. We h...
Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Nicol Stephen:
LD
I shall, but let me just finish.Schools should take reasonable steps to ensure that such children can participate fully in school trips. For example, schools...
Dr Ewing:
SNP
Should accessibility strategies always include deaf children who do not attend schools for the deaf?
Nicol Stephen:
LD
Yes, of course. To answer Dr Ewing's question, let me say that I was pleased that contributors to the debate—especially Jackie Baillie—stressed that the bill...
Michael Russell:
SNP
The minister has highlighted the link between the bill and the record of needs legislation, of which he has acknowledged that radical reform is needed. Can h...
Nicol Stephen:
LD
The short answer is no. I cannot give such an indication today. Announcements on legislative proposals are made as part of the full legislative programme tha...
Irene McGugan:
SNP
Will the minister take an intervention?
Nicol Stephen:
LD
I would be happy to take one final intervention.
Irene McGugan:
SNP
I very much appreciate the minister's giving way. Will he clarify what he said a moment ago about the avenues for redress that are available under different ...
Nicol Stephen:
LD
That is an issue that we debate often. All of us are anxious to ensure that there is as much consistency as possible between the disability legislation and t...