Chamber
Plenary, 27 Jun 2001
27 Jun 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Serious Violent and Sexual Offenders
As many members know, in a previous existence, I spent many years working with victims of violent and sexual offending and with perpetrators of those awful crimes. To understand both the mindset of those who sexually abuse and the findings of the MacLean report, it is necessary to acknowledge that sexual offenders have the innate ability to minimise and rationalise their horrendous crimes.
I will give members a few examples from my professional experience. A man was found guilty of eight years of sexual abuse of his daughter. On the night when I arrived to remove his children from his home, he said to me as I left the house,
"I'll have you know she gied it to me".
The little girl was 10 years old when he first forced himself on her.
What about the 50-year-old who had a catalogue of previous convictions for lewd behaviour and indecent assault? His explanation for his continued abuse of a neighbour's six-year-old child was that he was trying to comfort the child. A 19-year-old who raped the 10-month-old—yes, 10 months old—daughter of his girlfriend told me, when I was compiling a report:
"It wasn't me, it was the drugs".
He said that the drugs made him do it. I had to witness that baby's injuries as part of my job. I still wake up in the middle of the night with a picture of the injuries and the pain that he inflicted on that baby.
Because of those experiences, I am especially pleased with the emphasis that the MacLean report places on risk assessments and the need for such assessments to be structured and based on the best available evidence. For too long, criminal justice social workers have been denied access to much of the information that is required to predict risk.
At the present time, criminal justice social workers usually have access only to the records of the Scottish Criminal Records Office. Those records merely list previous convictions which, as often as not, are the result of plea bargaining. Those records, together with offenders' tendency to minimise their behaviour, make less than adequate bases on which to assess risk.
Will the minister assure me that he will take the necessary steps to ensure that those who will compile risk assessments will have access to police records and to original complaints or indictments? That would allow assessments to be based on historical factors, rather than on the sanitised SCRO versions—many of which, as I said, are the result of plea bargaining.
I welcome the Executive's embracing of the MacLean report. However, like other members, I must return to the problem that is faced by criminal justice social workers as they endeavour to undertake their duties to the highest possible standards; lack of resources and insufficient funding. In his summation, will the minister assure members that, when the new proposals come into force, they will not be constrained by lack of resources and insufficient funding?
I will give members a few examples from my professional experience. A man was found guilty of eight years of sexual abuse of his daughter. On the night when I arrived to remove his children from his home, he said to me as I left the house,
"I'll have you know she gied it to me".
The little girl was 10 years old when he first forced himself on her.
What about the 50-year-old who had a catalogue of previous convictions for lewd behaviour and indecent assault? His explanation for his continued abuse of a neighbour's six-year-old child was that he was trying to comfort the child. A 19-year-old who raped the 10-month-old—yes, 10 months old—daughter of his girlfriend told me, when I was compiling a report:
"It wasn't me, it was the drugs".
He said that the drugs made him do it. I had to witness that baby's injuries as part of my job. I still wake up in the middle of the night with a picture of the injuries and the pain that he inflicted on that baby.
Because of those experiences, I am especially pleased with the emphasis that the MacLean report places on risk assessments and the need for such assessments to be structured and based on the best available evidence. For too long, criminal justice social workers have been denied access to much of the information that is required to predict risk.
At the present time, criminal justice social workers usually have access only to the records of the Scottish Criminal Records Office. Those records merely list previous convictions which, as often as not, are the result of plea bargaining. Those records, together with offenders' tendency to minimise their behaviour, make less than adequate bases on which to assess risk.
Will the minister assure me that he will take the necessary steps to ensure that those who will compile risk assessments will have access to police records and to original complaints or indictments? That would allow assessments to be based on historical factors, rather than on the sanitised SCRO versions—many of which, as I said, are the result of plea bargaining.
I welcome the Executive's embracing of the MacLean report. However, like other members, I must return to the problem that is faced by criminal justice social workers as they endeavour to undertake their duties to the highest possible standards; lack of resources and insufficient funding. In his summation, will the minister assure members that, when the new proposals come into force, they will not be constrained by lack of resources and insufficient funding?
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-2041, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, on serious violent and sexual offenders, and an amendment to that ...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
I am pleased to move the motion today. First, it confirms that we have delivered on all of our programme for government commitment to"review the law by 2001 ...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
When reading this white paper, we have no choice but to go along with the stated aim of the minister: to make Scotland a safer place to live in. That is the ...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
Will Phil Gallie give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson):
Lab
The member is about to wind up.
Phil Gallie:
Con
I am sorry. I would have liked to take an intervention from Mike Rumbles.I have a number of other queries. One relates to the time that it may take to make a...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
As the lack of an SNP amendment to the motion suggests, I have no hesitation in welcoming the publication of the white paper on serious violent and sexual of...
Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab):
Lab
It will come as no surprise to members to learn that I, too, welcome unreservedly the contents of the white paper. I have also been pleased to hear a degree ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
No.
Gordon Jackson:
Lab
I am very sorry, but I thought I got a wee look.I always like to add a wee "but" just for the sake of it—old habits die hard. The white paper is a start, but...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
For Mr Jackson's information, he will know when I am winding him up.
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
The debate has always been emotive and controversial. It concerns the most difficult offenders in our society. The debate is about creating safe communities....
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Although the number of members in the chamber is somewhat depleted, there have been some extremely good speeches. Pauline McNeill was right to stress the imp...
Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
As many members know, in a previous existence, I spent many years working with victims of violent and sexual offending and with perpetrators of those awful c...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I would like to focus on one aspect of the excellent white paper. The paper tries to fulfil the recommendations of the MacLean committee and, on the technica...
Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab):
Lab
I commend the Executive for the process so far of developing a modern approach to the difficult issue of serious violent and sexual offenders.The Minister fo...
Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Like many members, I very much welcome the recommendations in the MacLean report and I thank the Executive for accepting them. The MacLean report will ensure...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
Sentencing is always a difficult issue, particularly when the crimes for which a sentence is being imposed are especially serious and sometimes horrific. The...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I realise that this is a matter of convention, but does the fact that the Executive front benches are entirely empty ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
It is not for me to comment. It is a convention for ministers normally to be present during a debate and I am sure that civil servants or Government whips wi...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab):
Lab
The Executive should be congratulated on bringing forward the white paper in line with the commitment in the programme for government and on accepting all th...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
Like Kay Ullrich, I bring personal experience to the debate, as I am a former psychiatric nurse who worked in a locked ward. I was 17 years old at the time; ...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
In this debate, we have seen the Scottish Parliament at its best. There is a kind of seminar atmosphere about the proceedings. I mean that in the highest sen...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The SNP welcomes these progressive proposals. We all hope that, once they are fleshed out, they will facilitate a balance between the release of those who ha...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
We are falling slightly short of time. I may have to suspend business for two or three minutes before 5 o'clock. We shall see.
Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
I am mindful of your concern about the timing, Presiding Officer, and I will try to as brief as I can.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The problem with the time is the other way round.
Mrs McIntosh:
Con
People have other places to go. I will not keep them any longer than I have to.We broadly accept the MacLean report findings and recommendations and we welco...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Iain Gray will wind up for the Scottish Executive.You have 14 minutes, minister. If you just want to take your allotted 10 minutes, I will stop for three min...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Iain Gray):
Lab
I am glad to have the opportunity today to discuss another aspect of the Scottish Executive's work that is aimed at protecting our communities. Managing the ...