Chamber
Plenary, 27 Jun 2001
27 Jun 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Serious Violent and Sexual Offenders
Although the number of members in the chamber is somewhat depleted, there have been some extremely good speeches. Pauline McNeill was right to stress the importance of social workers, who do a great deal to minimise reoffending. I welcome the publication of the white paper and the proposal to create the new risk management authority, which will assist the parole board in determining how best to protect the public. The protection of the public should at all times be the paramount principle and I am glad that the Administration is giving it much higher priority. I cannot help but reflect that the Minister for Justice will hand over responsibilities to the new authority, but it is refreshing that he will do so in a way that will reassure and protect our citizens.
We welcome Lord MacLean's report, which was published after a great deal of consultation, and which will make our countrymen and countrywomen better protected. However, had certain elements of the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Act 1997 relating to the early release of prisoners, minimum mandatory sentencing and imprisonment for life for certain offences been put into operation, a considerable amount of risk would have been eliminated.
Nonetheless, that does not alter the reality that Lord MacLean has contributed a great service to Scotland. He correctly diagnosed the problem and one of his key points was that judges, in sentencing offenders who might pose a high risk, do not have the systematic risk assessment information that they require. It was also made clear that offenders who have mental disorders are not in every case being given a sentence or disposal that reflects the underlying risk to the public. Lord MacLean advocated a central body that would act as a repository of information, guidance and standards, and he called for co-operation among the statutory, voluntary and private sector agencies to reduce risk.
He was absolutely right to argue for research from the risk management authority, and for it to set consistent standards and to reduce risk. Research reveals the truth, and it is always of assistance to those who are in positions of authority to know the truth and nothing but the truth.
It is right that the authority should adopt best practice on whether and when dangerous and potentially dangerous prisoners should be released, and on the long-term arrangements for such prisoners' supervision that should be put in place. It is also right that the order for lifelong restriction is a disposal that is, when necessary, readily available to the courts and that an offender can challenge the risk assessment, as described in the white paper.
I was glad to read in the document that,
"At the sentencing hearing, it will be for the Crown to establish, on the balance of probabilities, that the statutory criteria for an Order for Lifelong Restriction are met."
The guilt or innocence of the accused should be proved beyond reasonable doubt, but when a conviction is made, the disposal should be decided on the balance of probabilities, because that will give the public more protection.
Is the Minister for Justice satisfied that appropriate arrangements will exist in all cases for the supervision of Scotland-domiciled people who commit a killing abroad and who are then returned to this country and continue to represent a potential danger to the community? Perhaps he can tell the Parliament whether he is in touch with United Kingdom ministers on that issue, because that problem might relate to reserved matters and involve complex issues.
Will the Minister for Justice assure us that a mentally ill person who has committed a terrible act of violence—possibly a killing—will be held in secure accommodation while such risk remains, and that such people will be released only subject to appropriate supervision requirements? Many years ago, a killing was committed by an individual who was unfit to plead. In later years, that person was not subject to recall after release. I hope that the minister will address that matter.
Gordon Jackson was right to call for the necessary funds not only to implement the white paper, but to deal with degrading circumstances such as slopping out. That was to have been dealt with by £13 million that was diverted. I hope that the minister will ensure that the matter is given appropriate priority, considering the recent relevant case.
I am glad to say how much the Conservatives welcome the paper on serious violent and sexual offenders. We look forward greatly to the minister's response on the speed of implementation.
We welcome Lord MacLean's report, which was published after a great deal of consultation, and which will make our countrymen and countrywomen better protected. However, had certain elements of the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Act 1997 relating to the early release of prisoners, minimum mandatory sentencing and imprisonment for life for certain offences been put into operation, a considerable amount of risk would have been eliminated.
Nonetheless, that does not alter the reality that Lord MacLean has contributed a great service to Scotland. He correctly diagnosed the problem and one of his key points was that judges, in sentencing offenders who might pose a high risk, do not have the systematic risk assessment information that they require. It was also made clear that offenders who have mental disorders are not in every case being given a sentence or disposal that reflects the underlying risk to the public. Lord MacLean advocated a central body that would act as a repository of information, guidance and standards, and he called for co-operation among the statutory, voluntary and private sector agencies to reduce risk.
He was absolutely right to argue for research from the risk management authority, and for it to set consistent standards and to reduce risk. Research reveals the truth, and it is always of assistance to those who are in positions of authority to know the truth and nothing but the truth.
It is right that the authority should adopt best practice on whether and when dangerous and potentially dangerous prisoners should be released, and on the long-term arrangements for such prisoners' supervision that should be put in place. It is also right that the order for lifelong restriction is a disposal that is, when necessary, readily available to the courts and that an offender can challenge the risk assessment, as described in the white paper.
I was glad to read in the document that,
"At the sentencing hearing, it will be for the Crown to establish, on the balance of probabilities, that the statutory criteria for an Order for Lifelong Restriction are met."
The guilt or innocence of the accused should be proved beyond reasonable doubt, but when a conviction is made, the disposal should be decided on the balance of probabilities, because that will give the public more protection.
Is the Minister for Justice satisfied that appropriate arrangements will exist in all cases for the supervision of Scotland-domiciled people who commit a killing abroad and who are then returned to this country and continue to represent a potential danger to the community? Perhaps he can tell the Parliament whether he is in touch with United Kingdom ministers on that issue, because that problem might relate to reserved matters and involve complex issues.
Will the Minister for Justice assure us that a mentally ill person who has committed a terrible act of violence—possibly a killing—will be held in secure accommodation while such risk remains, and that such people will be released only subject to appropriate supervision requirements? Many years ago, a killing was committed by an individual who was unfit to plead. In later years, that person was not subject to recall after release. I hope that the minister will address that matter.
Gordon Jackson was right to call for the necessary funds not only to implement the white paper, but to deal with degrading circumstances such as slopping out. That was to have been dealt with by £13 million that was diverted. I hope that the minister will ensure that the matter is given appropriate priority, considering the recent relevant case.
I am glad to say how much the Conservatives welcome the paper on serious violent and sexual offenders. We look forward greatly to the minister's response on the speed of implementation.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-2041, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, on serious violent and sexual offenders, and an amendment to that ...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
I am pleased to move the motion today. First, it confirms that we have delivered on all of our programme for government commitment to"review the law by 2001 ...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
When reading this white paper, we have no choice but to go along with the stated aim of the minister: to make Scotland a safer place to live in. That is the ...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
Will Phil Gallie give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson):
Lab
The member is about to wind up.
Phil Gallie:
Con
I am sorry. I would have liked to take an intervention from Mike Rumbles.I have a number of other queries. One relates to the time that it may take to make a...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
As the lack of an SNP amendment to the motion suggests, I have no hesitation in welcoming the publication of the white paper on serious violent and sexual of...
Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab):
Lab
It will come as no surprise to members to learn that I, too, welcome unreservedly the contents of the white paper. I have also been pleased to hear a degree ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
No.
Gordon Jackson:
Lab
I am very sorry, but I thought I got a wee look.I always like to add a wee "but" just for the sake of it—old habits die hard. The white paper is a start, but...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
For Mr Jackson's information, he will know when I am winding him up.
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
The debate has always been emotive and controversial. It concerns the most difficult offenders in our society. The debate is about creating safe communities....
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Although the number of members in the chamber is somewhat depleted, there have been some extremely good speeches. Pauline McNeill was right to stress the imp...
Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
As many members know, in a previous existence, I spent many years working with victims of violent and sexual offending and with perpetrators of those awful c...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I would like to focus on one aspect of the excellent white paper. The paper tries to fulfil the recommendations of the MacLean committee and, on the technica...
Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab):
Lab
I commend the Executive for the process so far of developing a modern approach to the difficult issue of serious violent and sexual offenders.The Minister fo...
Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Like many members, I very much welcome the recommendations in the MacLean report and I thank the Executive for accepting them. The MacLean report will ensure...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
Sentencing is always a difficult issue, particularly when the crimes for which a sentence is being imposed are especially serious and sometimes horrific. The...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I realise that this is a matter of convention, but does the fact that the Executive front benches are entirely empty ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
It is not for me to comment. It is a convention for ministers normally to be present during a debate and I am sure that civil servants or Government whips wi...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab):
Lab
The Executive should be congratulated on bringing forward the white paper in line with the commitment in the programme for government and on accepting all th...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
Like Kay Ullrich, I bring personal experience to the debate, as I am a former psychiatric nurse who worked in a locked ward. I was 17 years old at the time; ...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
In this debate, we have seen the Scottish Parliament at its best. There is a kind of seminar atmosphere about the proceedings. I mean that in the highest sen...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The SNP welcomes these progressive proposals. We all hope that, once they are fleshed out, they will facilitate a balance between the release of those who ha...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
We are falling slightly short of time. I may have to suspend business for two or three minutes before 5 o'clock. We shall see.
Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
I am mindful of your concern about the timing, Presiding Officer, and I will try to as brief as I can.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The problem with the time is the other way round.
Mrs McIntosh:
Con
People have other places to go. I will not keep them any longer than I have to.We broadly accept the MacLean report findings and recommendations and we welco...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Iain Gray will wind up for the Scottish Executive.You have 14 minutes, minister. If you just want to take your allotted 10 minutes, I will stop for three min...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Iain Gray):
Lab
I am glad to have the opportunity today to discuss another aspect of the Scottish Executive's work that is aimed at protecting our communities. Managing the ...