Chamber
Plenary, 02 Mar 2000
02 Mar 2000 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
European Convention on Human Rights
Yes, I am prepared to accept those figures, but there could well be 340 specious charges. Lawyers are creative people when it comes to furthering the interests of their clients, just as they are creative politicians. What is indisputable is that those challenges that have been successful in relation to temporary sheriffs and section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 have had serious consequences, although we await the outcome of the appeal in the case of the Road Traffic Act 1988.
I will conclude the quotation from the article. It goes on to say:
"In the initial stages it is likely that there will be challenges to police actions on numerous fronts and that there will inevitably be uncertainty until the courts here have provided guidelines from which a clearer position can emerge."
No one wants to create a police state, and the boundary between police powers and civil liberties must be carefully patrolled and adjusted in light of changing circumstances. If too much emphasis is placed on individual rights and not enough emphasis is placed on the need for a safe and well-ordered society, we are in danger of going too far, making the police fight crime with one arm tied behind their back. If we are not careful, we might soon be in the position in which the police are metaphorically handcuffed but the criminals, literally, are not.
ECHR may also hamper the fight against drugs. We all know that the Deputy Minister for Justice is an enthusiastic convert to the Republic of Ireland's tough measures to tackle drug dealers. Its Criminal Assets Bureau has—according to his reports to the Parliament—been a great success. However, the Irish system involves the seizure of drug dealers' assets under a civil standard of proof in which the onus is reversed. There must be a doubt as to whether similar legal mechanisms would not only withstand legal challenges based on ECHR in our courts, but even get off first base and come to this Parliament as legislative proposals if the Scottish Executive and Presiding Officer cannot independently and separately certify their compatibility with ECHR.
The Irish have not had to face those challenges, as they have not directly incorporated ECHR into their domestic law, as we did with the Human Rights Act 1998. I believe that the Labour Government made a major mistake in passing the Human Rights Act 1998 without fully considering the implications for our law and our institutions. I do not expect many in this Parliament—outwith my party—to agree with me.
Having highlighted the problems, let us acknowledge that the wider debate is for another place. We in Scotland live in the world of a devolved Parliament and Executive. We must operate within the parameters that have been set by the Scotland Act 1998. We must come up with a constructive solution to some of the problems that have arisen and accommodate ECHR in the way in which we conduct our business.
The implications of ECHR already affect the Scottish Executive, and from 2 October 2000 the Human Rights Act 1998 will come into force across Scotland and the United Kingdom. It will then be unlawful for any public authority, such as a local authority, court, tribunal or other public agency, to act in a manner that is incompatible with ECHR.
We cannot afford to continue with the fire-fighting approach that the Executive has adopted in constantly waiting for the next disaster to strike. The Executive must start preparing in advance to deal with the implications of this legislation. I welcome the suggestion in the amendment lodged by Mr Wallace that that seems to be being done in terms of guidance given to public authorities in Scotland.
The first step in the process should be to reform the way in which ministers deal with ECHR compatibility. It is not good enough that ministers assert in a one-line submission to this Parliament that a bill is compatible with ECHR. It should be incumbent on the Executive to produce a full statement, with a rigorous analysis, explaining the ECHR implications of its legislative proposals. That is especially important in complex cases. The assessment should identify the specific rights that have an impact on the legislation. I remind members that interference with a qualified right, under ECHR, is justifiable only if it is
"necessary in a democratic society",
which is interpreted by Strasbourg as fulfilling a pressing social need, pursuing an accepted legitimate aim and achieving a reasonable relationship of proportionality between the means employed and the aim pursued. As has been demonstrated by Strasbourg case law, that concept of proportionality should be of most concern to us as parliamentarians. It should be at the very heart of our debates on legislative proposals that may have ECHR implications; it should not simply be taken as read in a one-line compatibility certificate.
It is crucial that the advice given to ministers or to the Parliament is open to scrutiny. That is certainly not the case at present. I note that Colin Boyd, in a statement issued after his appointment as Lord Advocate, said:
"The Executive is conducting an ECHR audit which will report to Ministers shortly."
Well, good for the Lord Advocate. But what about the Parliament? That is exactly the legal closed shop approach that has led to mistakes in the past. Far too often, legal opinions are presented as though they are scientific facts—immutable laws, like the law of gravity—when they are nothing of the kind. As many of us are well aware, the law is open to wide interpretation, and opinions should be open to scrutiny and debate in the chamber.
The Parliament should be given, as a matter of urgency, a report on the impact to date of incorporation and the preparations that the Executive has made for October, when the Human Rights Act 1998 takes full effect. I hope that the first stage of that report will come in the minister's response in this debate.
Above all, we need to provide guidance to all public bodies in Scotland about the effects of ECHR on an on-going basis. Our public bodies are unprepared for the brave new world that awaits them after 2 October. There is a lack of professional knowledge and expertise in this area, which is why I would welcome the establishment of a human rights commission or similar body to act as a point of reference or guidance on a consultancy basis. That is the most effective way of providing advice to public authorities. Local authorities and other public bodies should not have to employ extra lawyers to deal with ECHR compatibility—my legal colleagues may not like that suggestion—when a central specialist service could be available to them.
Like the Irishman who, when asked for directions, replied that he would not start from here, the Conservatives would not have incorporated ECHR. Now that it has been done, however, we think that the solutions that I have outlined in this debate will enable the system to work as effectively as possible. I hope that the minister will take some of those solutions—and indeed the comments in the amendment lodged by the Scottish National party—on board in the constructive spirit in which they are intended.
I move,
That the Parliament notes with concern the disruption to Scotland's judicial system resulting from Her Majesty's Government's decision to directly incorporate the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) into Scots Law without having paid due attention to the consequences; further notes that the Convention now impacts directly upon the legislative competence of the Parliament and the powers of the Scottish Executive and from October 2000 will apply to all public authorities in Scotland; calls upon the Scottish Executive to provide, at the earliest opportunity, a full report to the Parliament on the impact of incorporation to date and a statement on the Executive's state of preparedness for October when the Convention becomes fully operational, and further calls upon the Scottish Executive to provide a full and detailed analysis of the ECHR implications of legislative proposals submitted to the Parliament and to consider establishing a Human Rights Commission or some other body to provide expert advice and guidance on the impact of the ECHR on public authorities in Scotland.
I will conclude the quotation from the article. It goes on to say:
"In the initial stages it is likely that there will be challenges to police actions on numerous fronts and that there will inevitably be uncertainty until the courts here have provided guidelines from which a clearer position can emerge."
No one wants to create a police state, and the boundary between police powers and civil liberties must be carefully patrolled and adjusted in light of changing circumstances. If too much emphasis is placed on individual rights and not enough emphasis is placed on the need for a safe and well-ordered society, we are in danger of going too far, making the police fight crime with one arm tied behind their back. If we are not careful, we might soon be in the position in which the police are metaphorically handcuffed but the criminals, literally, are not.
ECHR may also hamper the fight against drugs. We all know that the Deputy Minister for Justice is an enthusiastic convert to the Republic of Ireland's tough measures to tackle drug dealers. Its Criminal Assets Bureau has—according to his reports to the Parliament—been a great success. However, the Irish system involves the seizure of drug dealers' assets under a civil standard of proof in which the onus is reversed. There must be a doubt as to whether similar legal mechanisms would not only withstand legal challenges based on ECHR in our courts, but even get off first base and come to this Parliament as legislative proposals if the Scottish Executive and Presiding Officer cannot independently and separately certify their compatibility with ECHR.
The Irish have not had to face those challenges, as they have not directly incorporated ECHR into their domestic law, as we did with the Human Rights Act 1998. I believe that the Labour Government made a major mistake in passing the Human Rights Act 1998 without fully considering the implications for our law and our institutions. I do not expect many in this Parliament—outwith my party—to agree with me.
Having highlighted the problems, let us acknowledge that the wider debate is for another place. We in Scotland live in the world of a devolved Parliament and Executive. We must operate within the parameters that have been set by the Scotland Act 1998. We must come up with a constructive solution to some of the problems that have arisen and accommodate ECHR in the way in which we conduct our business.
The implications of ECHR already affect the Scottish Executive, and from 2 October 2000 the Human Rights Act 1998 will come into force across Scotland and the United Kingdom. It will then be unlawful for any public authority, such as a local authority, court, tribunal or other public agency, to act in a manner that is incompatible with ECHR.
We cannot afford to continue with the fire-fighting approach that the Executive has adopted in constantly waiting for the next disaster to strike. The Executive must start preparing in advance to deal with the implications of this legislation. I welcome the suggestion in the amendment lodged by Mr Wallace that that seems to be being done in terms of guidance given to public authorities in Scotland.
The first step in the process should be to reform the way in which ministers deal with ECHR compatibility. It is not good enough that ministers assert in a one-line submission to this Parliament that a bill is compatible with ECHR. It should be incumbent on the Executive to produce a full statement, with a rigorous analysis, explaining the ECHR implications of its legislative proposals. That is especially important in complex cases. The assessment should identify the specific rights that have an impact on the legislation. I remind members that interference with a qualified right, under ECHR, is justifiable only if it is
"necessary in a democratic society",
which is interpreted by Strasbourg as fulfilling a pressing social need, pursuing an accepted legitimate aim and achieving a reasonable relationship of proportionality between the means employed and the aim pursued. As has been demonstrated by Strasbourg case law, that concept of proportionality should be of most concern to us as parliamentarians. It should be at the very heart of our debates on legislative proposals that may have ECHR implications; it should not simply be taken as read in a one-line compatibility certificate.
It is crucial that the advice given to ministers or to the Parliament is open to scrutiny. That is certainly not the case at present. I note that Colin Boyd, in a statement issued after his appointment as Lord Advocate, said:
"The Executive is conducting an ECHR audit which will report to Ministers shortly."
Well, good for the Lord Advocate. But what about the Parliament? That is exactly the legal closed shop approach that has led to mistakes in the past. Far too often, legal opinions are presented as though they are scientific facts—immutable laws, like the law of gravity—when they are nothing of the kind. As many of us are well aware, the law is open to wide interpretation, and opinions should be open to scrutiny and debate in the chamber.
The Parliament should be given, as a matter of urgency, a report on the impact to date of incorporation and the preparations that the Executive has made for October, when the Human Rights Act 1998 takes full effect. I hope that the first stage of that report will come in the minister's response in this debate.
Above all, we need to provide guidance to all public bodies in Scotland about the effects of ECHR on an on-going basis. Our public bodies are unprepared for the brave new world that awaits them after 2 October. There is a lack of professional knowledge and expertise in this area, which is why I would welcome the establishment of a human rights commission or similar body to act as a point of reference or guidance on a consultancy basis. That is the most effective way of providing advice to public authorities. Local authorities and other public bodies should not have to employ extra lawyers to deal with ECHR compatibility—my legal colleagues may not like that suggestion—when a central specialist service could be available to them.
Like the Irishman who, when asked for directions, replied that he would not start from here, the Conservatives would not have incorporated ECHR. Now that it has been done, however, we think that the solutions that I have outlined in this debate will enable the system to work as effectively as possible. I hope that the minister will take some of those solutions—and indeed the comments in the amendment lodged by the Scottish National party—on board in the constructive spirit in which they are intended.
I move,
That the Parliament notes with concern the disruption to Scotland's judicial system resulting from Her Majesty's Government's decision to directly incorporate the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) into Scots Law without having paid due attention to the consequences; further notes that the Convention now impacts directly upon the legislative competence of the Parliament and the powers of the Scottish Executive and from October 2000 will apply to all public authorities in Scotland; calls upon the Scottish Executive to provide, at the earliest opportunity, a full report to the Parliament on the impact of incorporation to date and a statement on the Executive's state of preparedness for October when the Convention becomes fully operational, and further calls upon the Scottish Executive to provide a full and detailed analysis of the ECHR implications of legislative proposals submitted to the Parliament and to consider establishing a Human Rights Commission or some other body to provide expert advice and guidance on the impact of the ECHR on public authorities in Scotland.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
The first item of business is a Scottish Conservative and Unionist party debate on motion S1M-610, in the name of David McLetchie, on the European convention...
David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer.At the outset of my speech, I wish to clarify what this debate is about and what we are seeking to achieve with our motion. It i...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
Was not 1988 during the period of the Conservative Government, when that Government was responsible for ensuring that its legislation complied with ECHR?
David McLetchie:
Con
Robert Brown's history is correct, but I return to what I said at the outset—this debate is about mechanisms. Under the previous system, a challenge to secti...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
Will David McLetchie confirm that all he has outlined is a series of possible challenges and suggestions from academics that measures may be contrary to ECHR...
David McLetchie:
Con
Yes, I am prepared to accept those figures, but there could well be 340 specious charges. Lawyers are creative people when it comes to furthering the interes...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
First, I welcome this debate and thank Mr McLetchie and his party for giving the Parliament an opportunity to discuss an important and topical issue. Human r...
David McLetchie:
Con
Will the minister accept that, in the legislation on the armed forces disciplinary code, Westminster is taking action in anticipation of the need to bring ou...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I am grateful to Mr McLetchie for that question, because this is a case not of either/or but of both/and. There will be occasions where it is important—for e...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
I would like to say at the outset that the Scottish National party starts from a position of unequivocally supporting the incorporation of the European conve...
David McLetchie:
Con
On the incorporation of ECHR, we opposed the Human Rights Act 1998 because the issue is the relationship between the convention and our domestic law. The cur...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
I hear what Mr McLetchie is saying, but the Conservatives' tone is one of grudging acceptance of a situation which most of us have welcomed. I sometimes wish...
Mr Jim Wallace:
LD
I hear what Roseanna Cunningham is saying. However, she mentioned that civil cases include custody and access cases. Will she accept that sheriffs principal ...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
I do not doubt that sheriffs principal are doing their very best, but it is clear from the figures that, in many jurisdictions, they are doing a juggling act...
Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan ) (Lab):
Lab
It is all very well to say that such a change should be anticipated, but what age would Roseanna Cunningham set to ensure that it conforms to ECHR? Surely we...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
It is inevitable that Gordon Jackson would ask that question. The truth is that once we decide that eight years old is not acceptable, we need to start the p...
Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab):
Lab
For five minutes, I was enjoying myself, listening to Roseanna Cunningham. I was agreeing with her, and I say to David McLetchie that I share her disappointm...
David McLetchie:
Con
In relation to the certification of compatibility of ministers, does Gordon Jackson believe that a one-line certificate of compliance is sufficient for this ...
Gordon Jackson:
Lab
I understand what Mr McLetchie means, but the difficulty with having the full legal advice analysed is that two lawyers will give two opinions, three lawyers...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
Does Gordon Jackson think that, if the age of criminal responsibility was set at eight, it would survive a challenge?
Gordon Jackson:
Lab
My honest opinion is that it would not have a snowball's chance in summer of surviving a challenge. However, the fact that I do not think that the proposal t...
David McLetchie:
Con
Would Gordon Jackson accept that the previous legal relationship between this country and the convention resulted in changes to our law? I am making the poin...
Gordon Jackson:
Lab
Of course that is right. It means that things are done more quickly. That is, however, far outweighed by the advantage for the citizen in having a matter res...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
The debate is now open. Speeches should last about four minutes; I will allow an additional minute or so for interventions.
Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
I am the first non-lawyer to speak. I do not get paid by the minute, so I will be brief.As has been said, we support the Government's aim of protecting the r...
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab):
Lab
I was fascinated to gain an insight into Roseanna Cunningham's surgeries—surgeries in rural Scotland are clearly very different from those in urban Scotland....
Mrs McIntosh:
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Hugh Henry:
Lab
No, I am about to finish. I want to echo Jim Wallace's point that the promotion of a human rights culture in Scotland is fundamental. We must respect human r...
Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
For a fleeting moment during Gordon Jackson's speech, I was of the mind that the problem is not with the ECHR, but with lawyers. We might not be having today...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
First, I must declare an interest in respect of my membership of the Law Society of Scotland, and my legal consultancy with Ross, Harper and Murphy—not least...