Committee
Transport and the Environment Committee, 23 May 2000
23 May 2000 · S1 · Transport and the Environment Committee
Item of business
Refuse Collection
Mr Bill Magee (Audit Scotland):
Watch on SPTV
Thank you very much, convener. I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to come along this morning to talk about the report. I am the secretary of the Accounts Commission for Scotland. I will say a few introductory words about the contents of the report and what the commission is about, after which I shall hand over to Martin Christie. Martin is a senior manager in the local government studies unit of Audit Scotland and has been intimately concerned with the report.
We have circulated to committee members some briefing papers, in the form of slides, simply to help the committee to follow what we are going to say in the next 10 or 15 minutes. After our introduction, we will be happy to answer questions and take part in a discussion.
The Accounts Commission was set up in 1975 and is primarily responsible for the external audit of Scottish local authorities and associated bodies such as police and fire boards and other joint committees. Under the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Act 2000, a new structure for public audit in Scotland was put in place. I shall come to that in a moment. The Accounts Commission's statutory functions remain to procure the external audit of local authorities; to prescribe and publish performance indicators, ensuring that local authorities publish that information; and to undertake value-for-money studies. It is in that third role that we are here to speak to you this morning.
We have had some organisational changes under the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Act 2000. The Accounts Commission continues to have the statutory functions that it has had since 1975, but the Auditor General for Scotland is responsible for the audit of other devolved matters. We have combined the staff of the Accounts Commission and the former National Audit Office in Scotland to create one body, which is called Audit Scotland. The staff and resources reside in that body, the intention being to provide one co-ordinated organisation to undertake public sector audit in Scotland. With two bodies, there was the potential for the duplication of overheads and additional support costs. Now there is only one organisation, where people such as Martin and I work, which is basically a service organisation for the Accounts Commission and the Auditor General.
The Accounts Commission retains the responsibility for undertaking value-for-money studies in local government. We have a programme for producing those studies, which we decide on after consultation with a variety of interests—primarily in local government, but including the Scottish Executive. In future, the Scottish Parliament's views will also be canvassed as part of our consultation process. We decide on a programme of studies and have a methodology for carrying out those studies, which involves using the audit resource that we have in every local authority to produce independently verifiable factual information, on which the conclusions are based.
The function of those reports is to make recommendations to local authorities to help them to secure economy efficiency and effectiveness in their use of resources. The Accounts Commission has no powers to intervene or direct the local authorities. We are essentially an independent body that reaches conclusions and makes recommendations. It is for the local authorities themselves, and any other interested executive bodies such as the Scottish Executive, to put those recommendations into effect.
Our unique selling point is that, through the auditor and the audit process, we return to each local authority after a period of time and revisit the recommendations that are made in the reports. We can then hold the local authorities to account by establishing the extent to which they have picked up and run with the recommendations. Clearly, we have no executive powers or powers of intervention.
We also publish performance information provided by the local authorities. We have given you the most recent publication containing performance information on the environment; it is a national collation of the information that each local authority has published individually. "Benchmarking refuse collection" was published at the end of April and is the result of a study process like the one I have described. Martin Christie will explain the contents of the study and the recommendations, which we feel will be of interest to the Transport and the Environment Committee.
We have circulated to committee members some briefing papers, in the form of slides, simply to help the committee to follow what we are going to say in the next 10 or 15 minutes. After our introduction, we will be happy to answer questions and take part in a discussion.
The Accounts Commission was set up in 1975 and is primarily responsible for the external audit of Scottish local authorities and associated bodies such as police and fire boards and other joint committees. Under the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Act 2000, a new structure for public audit in Scotland was put in place. I shall come to that in a moment. The Accounts Commission's statutory functions remain to procure the external audit of local authorities; to prescribe and publish performance indicators, ensuring that local authorities publish that information; and to undertake value-for-money studies. It is in that third role that we are here to speak to you this morning.
We have had some organisational changes under the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Act 2000. The Accounts Commission continues to have the statutory functions that it has had since 1975, but the Auditor General for Scotland is responsible for the audit of other devolved matters. We have combined the staff of the Accounts Commission and the former National Audit Office in Scotland to create one body, which is called Audit Scotland. The staff and resources reside in that body, the intention being to provide one co-ordinated organisation to undertake public sector audit in Scotland. With two bodies, there was the potential for the duplication of overheads and additional support costs. Now there is only one organisation, where people such as Martin and I work, which is basically a service organisation for the Accounts Commission and the Auditor General.
The Accounts Commission retains the responsibility for undertaking value-for-money studies in local government. We have a programme for producing those studies, which we decide on after consultation with a variety of interests—primarily in local government, but including the Scottish Executive. In future, the Scottish Parliament's views will also be canvassed as part of our consultation process. We decide on a programme of studies and have a methodology for carrying out those studies, which involves using the audit resource that we have in every local authority to produce independently verifiable factual information, on which the conclusions are based.
The function of those reports is to make recommendations to local authorities to help them to secure economy efficiency and effectiveness in their use of resources. The Accounts Commission has no powers to intervene or direct the local authorities. We are essentially an independent body that reaches conclusions and makes recommendations. It is for the local authorities themselves, and any other interested executive bodies such as the Scottish Executive, to put those recommendations into effect.
Our unique selling point is that, through the auditor and the audit process, we return to each local authority after a period of time and revisit the recommendations that are made in the reports. We can then hold the local authorities to account by establishing the extent to which they have picked up and run with the recommendations. Clearly, we have no executive powers or powers of intervention.
We also publish performance information provided by the local authorities. We have given you the most recent publication containing performance information on the environment; it is a national collation of the information that each local authority has published individually. "Benchmarking refuse collection" was published at the end of April and is the result of a study process like the one I have described. Martin Christie will explain the contents of the study and the recommendations, which we feel will be of interest to the Transport and the Environment Committee.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
Item 4 on the agenda is the Audit Scotland report, which was circulated to members. We will have a discussion with Audit Scotland officials on the content of...
Mr Bill Magee (Audit Scotland):
Thank you very much, convener. I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to come along this morning to talk about the report. I am the secretary of...
Mr Martin Christie (Audit Scotland):
In the next 10 minutes or so, I would like to take the committee through the objectives, scope, findings and recommendations of the study. I will then be hap...
The Convener:
Lab
Thank you. That was a useful talk through the report.
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I was concerned to hear you mention that council tax payers are subsidising commercial collection to the tune of £10 million. You mention in the part of the ...
Mr Christie:
I believe that the Scottish Environment Protection Agency is the governing body that can fine people for not having an arrangement for the disposal of their ...
The Convener:
Lab
What is your view on giving local authority cleansing departments the powers to carry out enforcement? When I was a councillor in Glasgow, we encountered dif...
Mr Christie:
I am not able to express a personal view, but I am interested in initiatives that Glasgow has taken. I believe that the problem can be resolved by co-operati...
Nora Radcliffe:
LD
One of the statistics in the report is that tonnage collected by councils has risen by 14 per cent in the past 10 years. Has there been a parallel population...
Mr Christie:
I do not have information on that to hand. The rise can be related to wheelie bins, the introduction of which has led to a greater tonnage being produced by ...
Nora Radcliffe:
LD
When I was a councillor, I thought my council should have introduced wheelie bins of half the size. A 240 litre bin was used, but a smaller one was given to ...
Mr Christie:
There is currently an interest in the REMADE initiative, which is working with the private sector to develop a market for recyclables. However, it is importa...
Tavish Scott:
LD
I have a question for Mr Magee and a couple for Mr Christie.From my background in local government in Shetland, I found that your organisation was not so muc...
The Convener:
Lab
Yes.
Tavish Scott:
LD
I bow to your superior knowledge, convener.As I said, those parts of the country face higher transportation and freight costs, which means that the market fo...
Mr Magee:
It has often been said that local government's strength lies in its diversity. We recognise that fact, which is why we have the kind of constitutional arrang...
Tavish Scott:
LD
I am sure you are acutely aware of the concerns of Shetland Islands Council—and other councils—about the amount of officer time some of these exercises take....
Mr Magee:
We do not do a costing exercise on that but burdens is an issue. We talk to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities as well as to individual councils. W...
Mr Christie:
Councils are developing area waste plans by working together. There are 11 waste plans in Scotland, which means that groups of two or three councils are work...
Tavish Scott:
LD
I am sorry to go on a bit, but I want to ask specifically about glass and paper. If those products are marketable, because there is a demand for them, how ca...
Mr Christie:
I understand that the REMADE initiative is exploring the issue of waste glass. The lessons to be learned from that exercise will be a valuable contribution t...
The Convener:
Lab
I suspect that members are bidding to join the Local Government Committee.
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
I will try to keep it short, to make up for Tavish Scott's questions. People have used words such as integration. We have these huge targets to meet and we w...
Mr Tosh:
Con
You will have passed Tavish by now.
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
I get very frustrated with all the fine talk about what people have to achieve, when there is no commitment at the top to helping everyone play their part in...
Mr Magee:
I want to avoid giving what will sound like a bureaucrat's answer, but I am afraid that, inevitably, I will fail. I accept entirely that resources are centra...
Robin Harper:
Green
It is difficult not to point out Scotland's appalling record in recycling. At 10 per cent, our best is well below the best in England, which is around 25 per...
Mr Christie:
I will leave the issue of the wheelie bins to one side for the moment. The best material that we have on the option of collecting rubbish that has been sorte...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I am sure that if the issue of commercial premises is highlighted to local authorities, they will want to act on that. Council tax payers will not want to th...
Mr Christie:
I will answer those points in order. On the level of pull-outs, the evidence for the figure of 5 per cent is a wee bit more than anecdotal. We obtained that ...