Committee
Rural Affairs and Environment Committee, 04 Mar 2009
04 Mar 2009 · S3 · Rural Affairs and Environment Committee
Item of business
Flood Risk Management (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Good morning, everybody.I agree with Rhoda Grant and Peter Peacock that it is important that the objectives and measures that are set out in flood risk management plans are delivered on the ground. Although the preparation of maps and plans is an important part of flood risk management, it is, of course, the works that make the difference. If we do not implement the works, we will not secure the achievements that we want that will make the difference to flood risk management throughout Scotland.Section 1 places a general duty on Scottish ministers, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and responsible authorities to exercise their flood risk-related functions with a view to reducing overall flood risk and so as to secure compliance with the floods directive. Amendment 1 will ensure that those parties will also be required to"act with a view to achieving the objectives set out in the flood risk management plan … as approved under section 27".I understand that Mr Peacock would like a specific reference to be made to local flood risk management plans. I want to stress two important points. First, although the duty in amendment 1 is linked to the objectives that are set out in the flood risk management plans that SEPA has prepared, the objectives that are set out in those plans will be the same as those that are set out in the local flood risk management plans. Therefore, the general duty will also apply to the local flood risk management plans.Secondly, section 23 stipulates that measures must be identified to achieve objectives. Therefore, the new duty links across to measures and to the implementation parts of local flood risk management plans that set out how the measures will be implemented.Amendment 1 therefore directly addresses recommendation 3 in the committee's stage 1 report. I am confident that the duty, alongside other provisions in the bill, will ensure that flood risk management is placed on a level playing field with other local authority responsibilities.Rhoda Grant's amendment 79 is, in effect, an alternative to amendment 1. The aim of both amendments is to strengthen the link between the duty to reduce overall flood risk and delivering the objectives that are set out in flood risk management plans. I am sure that amendment 1 will have the impact that Rhoda Grant seeks to obtain with amendment 79. However, her amendment would narrow the duty to reduce overall flood risk by limiting that to the achievement of objectives. It could detract from the aim of ensuring that responsible authorities act so as to reduce overall flood risk, even if that does not yet relate to an objective that has been specified in a plan.Peter Peacock's amendment 66, which is also an alternative to my amendment 1, would have a slightly different consequence. It would create a duty to implement the measures in local flood risk management plans, but as drafted, it would not leave much flexibility for local authorities or others to take account of changing circumstances. We have deliberately crafted the flood risk management planning process to allow for an element of flexibility to cover necessary changes in priorities, such as a need to focus on emergency work during major flooding incidents or to take account of new data that should, rightly, result in the implementation of particular measures being postponed or abandoned. The bill is about sustainable flood risk management. It would not be particularly sustainable for a local authority to continue to pursue an obsolete measure purely because there was a legal requirement for it to be implemented.There is also the risk that placing such a specific duty on local authorities to seek to implement the measures in a local flood risk management plan would elevate flooding above all the other areas in which a local authority must provide a service and in which no similar duty exists. By focusing on reducing flood risk and achieving the objectives of district plans, amendment 1 provides for a more reliable and flexible approach.In its report, the committee expressed concern about the possibility of local authorities implementing flood risk management measures that differ greatly from those that are set out in local flood risk management plans. Elsewhere in the bill, there are already restrictions that are intended to ensure that local authorities cannot circumvent the flood risk management planning process and pursue a different and possibly less sustainable agenda. Section 49 specifies that local authorities can use their powers to reduce flood risk only to implement the measures that are set out in local flood risk management plans. The only exceptions are in cases of emergency and where the work that is being done will not affect the implementation of the local plan. When considered together with the existing general duties in section 1, those provisions provide a flexible way of ensuring that plans are implemented. Preserving flexibility in the context of the bill is one of our key concerns.I ask Rhoda Grant to withdraw amendment 79 and request that amendment 66 not be moved.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
SNP
Agenda item 2 is consideration of the Flood Risk Management (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. Members should have in front of them their copy of the bill and a cop...
Section 1—General duty
The Convener:
SNP
Group 1 is on general duty: objectives and measures. Amendment 79, in the name of Rhoda Grant, is grouped with amendments 66 and 1.
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
The amendments in the group take the same direction. The bill as it stands does not contain a provision to implement the flood risk management plans. When we...
Peter Peacock (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
As Rhoda Grant said, all three amendments in the group seek to strengthen responsibility for implementing flood risk management plans. Each seeks to do so in...
The Minister for Environment (Roseanna Cunningham):
SNP
Good morning, everybody.I agree with Rhoda Grant and Peter Peacock that it is important that the objectives and measures that are set out in flood risk manag...
Alasdair Morgan (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
If I understood Mr Peacock correctly, he said that all three amendments could be agreed to. I was surprised by that suggestion. The bill is a bit opaque at t...
Bill Wilson (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Local democracy is an important issue in this context. Councils must be able to say what their priorities are at a particular time. I do not want us to be in...
John Scott (Ayr) (Con):
Con
I note the intentions behind the three amendments. Having listened to the arguments for each amendment and the minister's detailed explanation, I think that ...
Rhoda Grant:
Lab
I will not withdraw amendment 79, because it does not interfere with what the minister is trying to do; indeed, I think that it strengthens it. I press amend...
The Convener:
SNP
The question is, that amendment 79 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener:
SNP
There will be a division.
ForGrant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)AgainstMo...
The Convener:
SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 4, Abstentions 0.There is a tie, so I use my casting vote against the amendment.
Amendment 79 disagreed to.
Amendment 66 moved—Peter Peacock.
The Convener:
SNP
The question is, that amendment 66 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener:
SNP
There will be a division.
ForGrant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) AgainstM...
The Convener:
SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 4, Abstentions 0.Again, there is a tie. I use my casting vote against the amendment.
Amendment 66 disagreed to.
Amendment 1 moved—Roseanna Cunningham—and agreed to.
The Convener:
SNP
Group 2 is on general duty: environmental, economic and social impact. Amendment 2, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendment 82.
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
Members will be relieved to hear that I will not speak at the same length as I spoke on the previous group of amendments.The bill places a duty on the Scotti...
John Scott:
Con
As the minister noted, amendment 82 would implement recommendation 6 in the committee's stage 1 report, which was"that the Scottish Government produces a tim...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
I thank John Scott for reconsidering the need for his amendment and I reiterate the commitment to lodge a suitable amendment at stage 3 in the terms that I d...
Amendment 2 agreed to.
The Convener:
SNP
Group 3 is on consistency between purposes of flood risk-related functions and other duties. Amendment 80, in the name of Liam McArthur, is the only amendmen...