Committee
Public Petitions Committee, 08 Sep 2009
08 Sep 2009 · S3 · Public Petitions Committee
Item of business
New Petitions
Changing Places Toilets (PE1270)
Linda Burke (PAMIS):
Watch on SPTV
I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to speak to it about the need for more changing places toilets in Scotland. I will begin with some background information about my circumstances.My husband and I look after our 30-year-old daughter, Jenny, at home. I work full time; my husband is retired, but is involved in all aspects of caring for Jenny, as I am. I have been a parent member of PAMIS, which focuses on people with multiple or complex disabilities, for around 15 years.The term "complex disabilities" is used for a range of conditions. People with complex disabilities can have severe neurological and sensory damage, often accompanied by physical disabilities. Jenny had a brain haemorrhage shortly after she was born; as a result, she has severe learning difficulties and very little speech, and she uses a wheelchair to get about. She will always need to rely on other people for her personal care and to help her to live a full and complete life. All that sounds a bit negative, but Jenny is an extremely engaging and sociable person. She has a great sense of humour, and she loves music, shopping and just being out and about.Jenny attended a special school until she was about 19; she now attends an adult resource centre five days a week. Facilities vary from centre to centre, but staff take personal care requirements for clients very seriously. However, because changing facilities are centre based, any activities that she does outwith the centre are time limited to a couple of hours.When Jenny was young, all of us used to be able to go out to the beach for the whole day, visit relatives or go on holidays. However, now that she is an adult, we can no longer lift her without the right equipment. The lack of suitable changing facilities in the community has had a huge impact on her life; in fact, it has had a huge impact on everything that we can do as a family.Most people I know think that standard disabled toilets—I prefer to call them accessible toilets—are suitable for anyone with a disability, but that is simply not the case. Accessible toilets are totally unsuitable for people such as Jenny. For example, Jenny cannot transfer herself independently from her wheelchair. Our choices are limited to staying at home, only going out for a few hours—and not going too far away from home—or only going out for the day to places where there is a changing places loo.PAMIS and a range of other organisations have been campaigning for changing places toilets for more than 15 years. The toilets are not complicated, high tech or difficult to design. The basic requirements are: plenty of clean, safe space with room for two carers, a height-adjustable bench, a tracking hoist, a centrally placed toilet and a non-slip floor. I do not think that that is a lot to ask for, and it would make the difference between people being stuck at home and their being able to get out and about and do the things that most people take for granted. Changing places toilets are not only for people with complex disabilities such as Jenny; they are for anyone who cannot self-transfer to a toilet. Standard accessible loos simply do not have enough space to allow a carer or carers to work safely. On 3 September the new British standard 8300:2009 was adopted for changing places toilets, and it was launched here in the Scottish Parliament with a number of MSPs attending. BS 8300:2009 sets out the design standards for changing places toilets in public buildings and venues, and it has been drawn up with the help of architects, planners and carers. Most important, the new British standard recognises the rights of severely disabled people to be able to use the loo like everyone else.Providing public toilets is a local authority responsibility, and every authority in Scotland currently provides toilets with standard disabled access. However, very few of them provide changing places toilets. Some local authorities have taken the issue on board. For example, Dumfries and Galloway has three changing places toilets, with three more planned.Provision is far from universal, however. Nationwide, only 10 local authorities have changing places toilets. According to a recent survey by the Learning Disability Alliance Scotland, one local authority said that such toilets were only for "extreme types". Given that, according to estimates in a University of Dundee study, 25,000 people with disabilities in Scotland would benefit from such facilities, that seems a very odd thing for a group of decision makers to say.I am happy to report that the Scottish Parliament has a fully accessible loo, but I would like members to note that the facility came about only as a result of lobbying by PAMIS.We lodged our petition because we want your help: help in encouraging all local authorities to live up to their responsibilities under equality legislation; help in making changing places toilets available throughout the whole of Scotland; help for thousands of people throughout Scotland who are stuck at home unable to access their community because of a lack of suitable facilities such as those that most people take for granted; and help for Jenny, who would like to be able to spend a whole day at the seaside instead of just having an ice cream at the local cafe and then having to go home again.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
PE1270, by Linda Burke, on behalf of the Profound and Multiple Impairment Service and the Learning Disability Alliance Scotland, calls on the Scottish Parlia...
Linda Burke (PAMIS):
I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to speak to it about the need for more changing places toilets in Scotland. I will begin with some backgr...
The Convener:
Lab
Thank you very much.I should have introduced Jackie Baillie, who has had an interest in this subject over a number of years—in fact, since the start of her t...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
I would be delighted to do so, and I thank you for the opportunity, convener. Linda Burke has described far more eloquently than I can her daughter's circums...
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
The petition calls for a changing places toilet to be provided"within the centre of each town with a population greater than 15,000".I represent the Highland...
Ian Hood (Learning Disability Alliance Scotland):
I think that that is right. We struggled a bit to choose a figure. We chose 15,000 because that figure is used in some of the census definitions of city area...
The Convener:
Lab
That is helpful.
Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
It is useful that you have come here today to draw this issue to our attention. So many people do not realise that accessible toilets—I do not like calling t...
Linda Burke:
Jenny is 30.
Anne McLaughlin:
SNP
When you said, "after her 19th birthday", I thought that she must be 30, but I had already decided that she must be 13, because you could not possibly have a...
The Convener:
Lab
Stereotypically, is it not my job to flatter blondes?
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
I am not saying that there should not be a lower limit of 15,000—perhaps it could be 10,000—but it could be helpful to mention areas of cities where there is...
Joyce Burns (PAMIS):
I am an occupational therapist who works with PAMIS. We have done some work on that point, which I think answers the previous point about how to capture the ...
Marlyn Glen (North East Scotland) (Lab):
Lab
When the Equal Opportunities Committee took evidence from the Equality and Human Rights Commission this morning, we heard about the equality measurement fram...
Joyce Burns:
That approach is helpful and I think it is the route that we have to go down. I am looking at Ian Hood because I know that that area is covered in some of th...
Ian Hood:
Equality impact assessments are still relatively new. A number of local authorities that have looked at them in relation to their public toilet provision hav...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Convener, I am conscious that we are putting the onus on local authorities, but I am also aware that many disabled people use out-of-town retail centres, whi...
Ian Hood:
The first changing places toilet in Britain was provided in a shopping centre in Milton Keynes as part of a commercial decision, and the shopping centre at B...
Linda Burke:
It is easy to see why retail places were the first to spot that they were on to a good thing by installing a changing places toilet; after all, retail parks ...
Nigel Don (North East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Having listened to the earlier discussion about the importance of this issue, which I readily understand, I hope you will forgive me for raising a very munda...
Joyce Burns:
The additional costs are generally associated with the hoist and the hydraulic height-adjustable changing bench. The overall cost of a changing places toilet...
Nigel Don:
SNP
But if the figure were, say, £5,000, that would not be a large figure as far as building work was concerned. I suppose that my point is that the issue is mor...
Joyce Burns:
Yes. As an occupational therapist, I have been involved in the conversion of many buildings and I have found that if this particular British standard were bu...
The Convener:
Lab
From members' questions, I get the impression that they want to support the petition and explore issues such as parity and how to ensure that not only the pu...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
We should certainly ask the Government about the points that Jackie Baillie raised on single outcome agreements and Government guidance to local access forum...
The Convener:
Lab
Okay. As Ian Hood and Linda Burke suggested, the Scottish Retail Consortium might be the major body to explore this issue with. Perhaps we should communicate...
Robin Harper:
Green
It strikes me that, along with recommending that the Government consider requiring there to be such toilets in towns of at least 15,000 people or whatever fi...
Marlyn Glen:
Lab
It would be worth writing to a selection of local authorities as well as the Scottish Government, under their equalities duty, about their plans to provide c...
The Convener:
Lab
Okay. I understand that local authorities have legal requirements to make their buildings accessible, but we need to broaden it out beyond local authorities....