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Showing 60 of 2,355,091 contributions. Latest 30 days: 148. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 14 May 2026.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
14 May 2026
Deputy Presiding Officers
Everyone has now voted. Once again, I ask scrutineers and candidates to please go to the back of the chamber. The votes will be counted for the final time.In the final round of voting to elect a second Deputy Presiding Officer, the number of votes that were cast for each candi...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
14 May 2026
Deputy Presiding Officers
Ballot papers up the back. Please vote now.Members voted by secret ballot.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
14 May 2026
Deputy Presiding Officers
I declare that the election for the second Deputy Presiding Officer is now open. The voting procedures are the same as before.Members voted by secret ballot.The Presiding Officer:Voting in this round of the Deputy Presiding Officer election is closed. I invite the scrutineers,...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
14 May 2026
Deputy Presiding Officers
Voting for this round of the Deputy Presiding Officer election is now closed. I invite scrutineers to proceed to the back of the chamber for the count. Again, candidates may also observe the count.Colleagues, you will be delighted to know that we have a result. In this round o...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
14 May 2026
Deputy Presiding Officers
Okay, folks, you know the drill. Ballot papers are at the back of the chamber.Members voted by secret ballot.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
14 May 2026
Deputy Presiding Officers
Good afternoon, everyone. I am glad that you are all with us once more. This will be the last voting session of the afternoon, you will be glad to know—before you can all depart the scene.I have received five valid nominations for the position of Deputy Presiding Officer, and ...
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
14 May 2026
Deputy Presiding Officers
The first meeting of the seventh session of the Parliament is now resumed. I have received five valid nominations for the position of Deputy Presiding Officer. I shall now announce the nominees and ask all candidates, as their names are announced, to make themselves known to t...
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
14 May 2026
Presiding Officer
Okay, folks. I have just been given some instructions about what will happen next. However, before that, I want to thank every member who has participated in this voting process. My belated congratulations to them if I have not already spoken to them about winning their own el...
The Presiding Officer Chamber
14 May 2026
Presiding Officer
Voting in the third round of the election of the Presiding Officer is closed. I invite any scrutineers appointed by the candidates to go to the back of the chamber to observe the counting of ballot papers. Candidates may also observe the count.In this round of voting in the el...
The Presiding Officer Chamber
14 May 2026
Presiding Officer
This voting period is now open, using the same voting procedure as before.Members voted by secret ballot.
The Presiding Officer Chamber
14 May 2026
Presiding Officer
Voting in this round of the Presiding Officer election is closed. I invite the scrutineers to proceed to the back of the chamber for the counting of votes. Again, candidates may also observe the count.In the second round of voting in the election of the Presiding Officer, the ...
The Presiding Officer Chamber
14 May 2026
Presiding Officer
Voting in the first round of the election of the Presiding Officer is closed. I now invite any scrutineers appointed by the candidates to go to the back of the chamber to observe the counting of ballot papers. Candidates may also observe the count.In the first round of voting ...
The Presiding Officer Chamber
14 May 2026
Presiding Officer
As previously announced, I have received four valid nominations. In alphabetical order, the nominees are: Kenneth Gibson, Clare Haughey, Liam McArthur and Stuart McMillan.The election shall proceed in accordance with rule 11.9 of standing orders. If no member receives an overa...
The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) Chamber
14 May 2026
Presiding Officer
The first meeting of the seventh session of the Parliament is resumed. I have received four valid nominations for the position of Presiding Officer. I shall now announce the nominations and ask all candidates, as their names are announced, to make themselves known to the chamb...
The Presiding Officer Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I wish to inform members that nominations for the position of Presiding Officer will open at 12.30 pm. Nomination forms can be collected from the parliamentary business team, which is situated in T1.03. Completed nomination forms should be returned to the parliamentary busines...
Kate Campbell (Edinburgh Eastern, Musselburgh and Tranent) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
My first allegiance is to the people of Scotland, who are sovereign.I, Kate Rosa Campbell, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Stephen Gethins (Dundee City East) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Stephen Patrick Gethins, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Jenny Young (Central Scotland and Lothians West) (Lab) Lab Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Jenny Young, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
David Torrance (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, David Herd Torrance, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Maree Todd (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Maree Todd, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.Tha mise Maree Todd, gu sòlaimte is fìrinneach a’ cur an cèill agus ag innse gum bi mi d...
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Alison Thewliss, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.Tha mise Alison Thewliss, gu sòlaimte is fìrinneach a’ cur an cèill agus ag innse g...
Paul Sweeney (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Paul John Sweeney, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Collette Stevenson (East Kilbride) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Collette Stevenson, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Pauline Stafford (Bathgate) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I pledge my allegiance to the people of Scotland, who are sovereign.I, Pauline Stafford, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Shirley-Anne Somerville (Dunfermline) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Shirley-Anne Somerville, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
David Smith (West Scotland) (Reform) Reform Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, David Haydn Smith, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Alyn Edward Smith, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green) Green Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
My first allegiance is to the people of Scotland, who are sovereign.I, Lorna Jane Slater, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Mark Simpson (North East Scotland) (Reform) Reform Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Mark Simpson, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland and Lothians West) (Reform) Reform Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Graham Simpson, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Kim Schmulian (Glasgow) (Reform) Reform Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Kim Schmulian, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Katherine Sangster (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab) Lab Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Katherine Blackstock Sangster, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Green Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
In my heart, my allegiance is to the people of Scotland.I, Mark Ruskell, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Angela Ross (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Reform) Reform Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Angela Ross, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Emma Roddick (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I make this affirmation under protest in order to sit in this Parliament, where my allegiance will be to the people of Inverness and Nairn.I, Emma Roddick, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King...
Willie Rennie (Fife North East) (LD) LD Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, William Cowan Rennie, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Kirsten Oswald (Eastwood) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Kirsten Frances Oswald, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Kate Nevens (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Green) Green Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I make this affirmation to the sovereign people of Scotland and pledge that, in all my actions, the interests of the Scottish people shall be paramount over and above those of the monarchy.I, Kate Nevens, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be fait...
Laura Moodie (South Scotland) (Green) Green Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
My affirmation is to the sovereign people of Scotland, whose interests I will always serve before those of the monarchy.I, Laura Moodie, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs...
Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I believe that the people of this country should be citizens, not subjects, and my first allegiance is to them.I, Carol Ann Mochan, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and ...
Laura Mitchell (Moray) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Laura Mitchell, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.I, Laura Mitchell, gie my depone, solemnly and sincerely, aat I wull be faithful and...
Jenni Minto (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Jenni Minto, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Jack Middleton (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I declare that my first loyalty will always be to the people of Scotland.I, Jack Middleton, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Colm Merrick (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Colm Merrick, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Lloyd Melville (Angus South) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Lloyd Alexander Melville, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Pauline Mary McNeill, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Marie McNair (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Marie Alexandra McNair, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Stuart McMillan (Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Stuart McMillan, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Paul McLennan (East Lothian Coast and Lammermuirs) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Paul Stewart McLennan, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Ivan McKee (Glasgow Easterhouse and Springburn) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Ivan McKee, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Cara McKee (West Scotland) (Green) Green Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Cara McKee, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Helen McDade (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Reform) Reform Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Helen McDade, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Liam Scott McArthur, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Màiri McAllan (Clydesdale) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Màiri Louise McAllan, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Duncan Massey (North East Scotland) (Reform) Reform Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Duncan Massey, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Gillian Martin (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
My allegiance is to the people of Scotland, who are sovereign.I, Gillian Anne Martin, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Michael Marra, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Q Manivannan (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Green) Green Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I make the affirmation for the people of Scotland and their care, my bonnie, bonnie home.I, Q Manivannan, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law.
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh North Eastern and Leith) (SNP) SNP Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
In order to represent my constituents and serve the common good and the people of Scotland, I, Ben Macpherson, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according...
Donald MacKinnon (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab) Lab Chamber
14 May 2026
Oaths and Affirmations
I, Donald MacKinnon, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.Tha mise Dòmhnall MacFhionghain, a’ mionnachadh gum bi mi dìleas agus fìor umhail do A Mhòrachd An Rìgh Teàrla...
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Committee

Local Government Committee, 10 Nov 1999

10 Nov 1999 · S1 · Local Government Committee
Item of business
Rating Revaluation
Gerry Dowds (Forum of Private Business): Watch on SPTV
I am accompanied by Nick Goulding, who is our UK head of policy, and who has come up from England to be here today.The Forum of Private Business Scotland represents 2,200 small and medium enterprises in Scotland. Eighty-five per cent of those employ fewer than 15 people, and the average turnover is £450,000 per annum. We will be delighted to answer any questions on the forum or on the relief scheme.We have two objectives today. We want to present the case for transitional rates relief in the April 2000 revaluation. We also want to present the case for a suitable small business rates relief scheme to reduce the overall burden on SMEs. Those issues are separate in terms of their impacts on SMEs. At the end of the presentation we would like to propose priorities in those separate issues.On the impact of business rates on SMEs, our data show that business rates are the second biggest overhead after payroll. That is not the case for public limited companies. I noticed that the committee endeavoured to find out what percentage of profits—or turnover or costs—rates represent for plcs.Our data show that SMEs pay 25 per cent of their gross profits on rates, compared to 5 per cent for plcs. The Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions statistics, to which Patrick Browne of the Scottish Retail Consortium referred, say virtually the same as that.Rates have an impact on the attitudes of our members. In our quarterly surveys, business rates have been the No 1 concern, out of 26 choices, since the fourth quarter of 1997. Since we started conducting quarterly surveys in 1977, business rates have never been out of the top three concerns. It is a perennial problem rather than one that has suddenly been manifested. In April, we conducted a survey of our members' priorities for the Scottish Parliament. In breadth and depth, rates were No 1 and outweighed other issues by a factor of three.There is no doubt that there is an issue to be addressed. That is why we are grateful to the committee for the opportunity to present our case.I will give the case for revaluation relief. It is clear from the consultation document, which you will now have seen, although you had not last Wednesday, that the Scottish Executive recommends a scheme for transitional relief similar to those in 1990 and 1995.There will be immediate large increases in what is the second biggest overhead. Fergus Ewing talked about average increases. The rateable value will increase by 13 per cent. We know that the uniform business rate poundage will come down to reflect that increase, so that the average increase will be at, or just below, the rate of inflation. However, the example of the average masks the fact that many extreme cases of increases and decreases will result from the revaluation. That is true for properties of all types, in all regions of Scotland.The principle of revaluation relief is well established and appreciated by the business community. Last week, one witness, the Federation of Small Businesses, said that the business community does not value it, but we disagree. The business community applauded the revaluation relief, in 1990 and 1995, in both England and Scotland.There is a final point to be made in the case for revaluation relief. The federation's paper points out that a merging of revaluation relief and small business relief has been sought. That does not address the problem, for two fundamental reasons.A business with a rateable value of £3,000—which, after April 2000, rises to £9,000—would not apply for small business relief funding under the federation's scheme. Worse, it would experience a hike in its rates and, if the Scottish Government did not fund its scheme, it would be expected to pay even more to subsidise businesses that had received a reduction because they fell below the £7,500 rateable value threshold.What of a business with a rateable value of £4,000, which experienced a reduction in rateable value? Not only would it experience a reduction in its rates bill as a result of the revaluation next year, but the federation scheme would allow it a further 50 per cent off that new bill. For those two reasons, such a scheme would not be fair to the rest of the small or medium business community.I turn to the case for a small firms relief scheme. On average, small or medium firms are paying five times more, as a percentage of their profits, on rates. We also know that smaller firms pay much higher rates than larger firms per square foot. That is a more complex argument that concerns the zoning principle and other technical aspects, such as the way in which the Scottish assessors value properties. The front of a property may be deemed to be of a higher value than the property at the back of the store. A newsagent's may have a depth of 50 feet. The vast bulk of that property might be valued at a far higher rate than the back end of Marks and Spencer, which would attract a much lower assessment from the Scottish assessors. On the basis of size, there are technical reasons why the cost of occupancy is higher for smaller firms than for larger ones.If occupancy presents a higher cost, which it does, any tax that is based on rental value is bound to bear disproportionately on the smaller business sector. Small businesses, not unsurprisingly, favour a small business relief scheme. In a poll that was conducted in April 1998, 91 per cent of our members favoured a small business relief scheme that would be paid for by larger firms. That is no surprise, given the constituency that we represent.We think that there are principles that the committee should consider before it considers solutions. We believe that they are worthwhile principles, against which any scheme should be judged. The chap from Boots, to whom Nick and I were listening this morning, made some fundamental commonsense points. That was refreshing. Some of those are reflected on this slide. First, relief should be targeted on the size of business, taking account of the close relationship between the impact of rates and the size of a business. We know that smaller businesses pick up a bigger tab in proportion to their profits.Secondly, size should be measured on current information. Rateable value is dated. A relief scheme should reflect the current business circumstances, if that is possible. Thirdly, relief should be aimed at businesses, not premises. That point was made strongly by the SRC, and I thought that that Boots chap hit it absolutely bang on the head. If we aim relief at premises, it will be given to bigger businesses as well as to smaller ones. That is not discretionary.Fourthly, thresholds should be avoided, for two reasons. The first is that they tend to limit growth aspirations. They might not have a major impact on the growth of businesses, but they may delay or defer it, or encourage businesses to work around them. The second is that thresholds are notorious for causing unfair competition around the margin: "How do I get my business below this threshold to reduce my second biggest overhead by 50 per cent?" As we have already said, in our view, they would lead to a large increase in appeals for chartered surveyors.Simplicity is important, so the system must be simple for businesses and local authorities to apply and administer. We would want disruption to the current system to be minimised. A relief scheme should not be funded by the taxpayer but by shifting the burden, because there is a disproportionate cost burden on small businesses compared with large ones.We felt that it would help committee members if we passed on our members' views of relief schemes. We conducted a survey in May 1998 and asked our members, "What preference do you have, in terms of the measurement of smallness, if a small business relief scheme is in the offing?" The first preference was for a scheme based on last year's profit, which 36 per cent voted for, followed by current employment at 28 per cent. Last year's turnover was the next most popular option. Notice that only 11 per cent supported a scheme based on rateable value: 89 per cent of our membership, which is representative of the SME community, do not favour a relief scheme bases on rateable value.The Forum of Private Business would be happy with a scheme based on profit or employment but, for technical reasons, national insurance is a good proxy for either of those. We would be glad to expand on that during questioning. There are difficulties with profit and with turnover. You only have to look at the different sectoral turnovers to see that a scheme based on turnovers would be difficult to implement. As we shall suggest in a moment, a scheme based on national insurance is the way forward. A relief scheme based on rateable value would be as bad as the poll tax in terms of its application to smaller businesses.There are some advantages with our preferred option of an NI-based scheme. We know that the necessary figures are already available. Indeed, they are used for statutory sick pay. An FPB amendment in the House of Lords three years ago encouraged the Government to introduce a reimbursement scheme for statutory sick pay for small businesses, so there is a precedent for schemes based on national insurance. An NI-based scheme would be much more up to date than rateable value, and it would measure the size and the resources of a business in terms of the number of employees and the salary levels that are being paid.The scheme would provide tapered relief, which would not encourage distortions in business decision making. In our suggestion for a taper you will see that we have tried to present a case for a taper that is sufficiently flat that at any point along the curve the decision-making process of a business is not influenced significantly by a single factor such as a relief scheme on business rates. The scheme would be delivered through the current pay-as-you-earn system, which would avoid any changes for local authorities, and it would not be subject to complications caused by changes in the rateable value following an appeal, which can bring firms below a threshold.How would the system operate? We suggest that to maintain a flat taper the system should not just use national insurance, but should have a dual taper based on property and on national insurance. We will provide an example of such a scheme in a moment. The relief would be claimed monthly as a simple deduction from the business's taxation and national insurance liability. It would be fully administered through PAYE; in other words, businesses would operate the scheme for themselves. There would be a need for a supplementary table for those businesses that operate a manual system. Of course, we do not want to get ourselves into a repayment exercise so there would be a need for a ceiling on relief set at the gross tax and national insurance that would be due in the period of any claim to prevent any reimbursement.In the following table we have given an indication—and I stress that it is an indication—of the percentage reduction of rate liability. Across the top of the table we have the gross annual rate liability on all premises occupied by the business going up in £5,000 bands, but different bands could be chosen. Down the left of the table we have gross monthly—not annual—employers' class 1 national insurance liability, as well as class 2 and 3 NI contributions. That shows that the relief would be spread much further than just a £5,000 rateable value, both in terms of national insurance contributions and rateable value.The next slide shows what that means to the average business in terms of pound notes. The figures show the indicative monthly rebate figure as a result of applying that dual taper. The figures are purely for illustrative purposes. Ensuring that the right scheme had the right balance would involve much more analysis.At this meeting, we wanted to argue the case for a transitional relief scheme and for a separate small business relief scheme. We think that those schemes are necessary for the Scottish economy. The priority for the committee should be the transitional relief scheme to take account of the revaluation exercise next year. We will submit our views on that before the deadline.We encourage the committee not to make a decision on any small business relief scheme until further investigation has taken place. We believe that if the principle is right, we should not rush the solution but should take our time to get it absolutely right. It is better to get the right solution than a quick fix.

In the same item of business

The Convener: Lab
We shall now start the second item on our agenda, which is the continuation of our inquiry into rating revaluation. Our witnesses are representatives of the ...
Patrick Browne (Scottish Retail Consortium):
Thank you, convener. I shall introduce my colleagues. Mike Flecknoe is the rating executive with Boots, which is one of our members and operates approximatel...
Mike Flecknoe (Scottish Retail Consortium):
I will express only the view of Boots. Boots is a supporter of high streets and town centres and wants small businesses to thrive as they add to the vitality...
Patrick Browne:
The cost structure for retailing business is different from that of other types of business. On balance, retailing premises tend to be more heavily rated tha...
Brian Smillie (Scottish Retail Consortium):
Good morning everyone. As Patrick Browne has said, I am president of the British Hardware Federation, and I would like to take a moment to explain the nature...
Patrick Browne:
We are aware that a great deal of the committee's attention has so far focused on the proposals for a system of rates relief for small businesses. We have ha...
The Convener: Lab
Thank you for that presentation. I am sure that there will be questions.
Donald Gorrie: LD
Most of us see the point of transitional relief, but the fact that we hope that the new lot of transitional relief will come on top of continuing transitiona...
Patrick Browne:
The Scottish Retail Consortium has not given a great deal of thought to what scheme could be used to help smaller businesses. My colleagues may be able to in...
Mike Flecknoe:
I deal with business rates and would not pretend to be an expert on other forms of taxation. The point that we are trying to make is that there is no correla...
Brian Smillie:
I tend to support that. I appreciate the difficulty that you have, but rates should relate to economic activity rather than to the value of the property, whi...
Mr Gibson: SNP
We all accept that the current system has a number of flaws, but I am concerned about how the system that you are proposing would work. If rates liability we...
Mike Flecknoe:
I do not disagree. However, the problem with the rating system is that it operates on a five-year revaluation cycle, with transitional relief. Usually, prope...
Mr Gibson: SNP
Patrick talked about funding transitional relief from the Scottish consolidated fund. Have you worked out how much that would cost and where the money would ...
Patrick Browne:
We would prefer the scheme not to be fully self-funded, as that would increase the burden on the businesses it covers. Rating is a complex subject, and becau...
Mr Gibson: SNP
As Michael told the Confederation of British Industry, the difficulty that we have is in deciding which budget to take the money from if the scheme is not se...
Patrick Browne:
We have indicated our support for transitional relief, but I want to reiterate our concern about the proposals of the Federation of Small Businesses, which w...
Mr Gibson: SNP
Only if it were not self-financing.
Patrick Browne:
If you chose to pass the cost on to businesses, they would be faced with an additional tab to that amount. Either way, the scheme would create losers.
Mr McMahon: Lab
I want to focus on one issue that may involve you as landlords. Can you tell me why large organisations that generate rents through competition should be sub...
Mike Flecknoe:
Strictly speaking, landlords do not pay business rates, unless the property is vacant, in which case they are classed as the occupier. The vast majority of o...
Patrick Browne:
The only SRC member that I am aware of that owns a significant amount of property is Marks and Spencer, which has 22 stores in Scotland. My understanding is ...
Mr McMahon: Lab
As Kenny Gibson said, last week we questioned the Federation of Small Businesses. In response to one of my questions, the federation said that it would prefe...
Patrick Browne:
It is difficult for me to comment, as we have major concerns about the FSB's proposals. It would not be appropriate for me to say how we think that something...
Mr Paterson: SNP
I welcome the candid approach that the consortium has adopted today towards the mix of properties and the impact on small businesses, given that most of your...
Patrick Browne:
I have not.
Mr Paterson: SNP
That is okay. I will not ask about the paper and I will rephrase my question. Would you be interested in a system that genuinely considered the impact of bus...
Patrick Browne:
As I said before, the consortium does not have a collective view on the issue of rates relief for smaller businesses because of the balance of our membership...
Mike Flecknoe:
The difficulty lies in considering non-domestic rates only as they apply to small businesses. The variables cannot be considered without considering other va...
Mr Paterson: SNP
Would you support it or just consider it?