Committee
Local Government and Communities Committee, 25 Nov 2009
25 Nov 2009 · S3 · Local Government and Communities Committee
Item of business
Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Item 3 is to take oral evidence on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill. I welcome our first panel of witnesses, who are Kenny MacAskill MSP, Cabinet Secretary for Justice; and, from the criminal law and licensing division of the Scottish Government, Philip Lamont, head of branch, and Jim Wilson, policy officer. I invite the cabinet secretary to make brief opening remarks.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
Item 3 is to take oral evidence on the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Bill. I welcome our first panel of witnesses, who are Kenny MacAskill MSP, Cabinet Secretar...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
We are generally supportive of the principles of the bill, which was first proposed by Alex Neil and has been taken on by Christine Grahame. It seems to us t...
The Convener:
Lab
Thank you for those brief remarks. The committee always welcomes such brevity, which allows us to get on to questions. I will open up by following on from or...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I have asked officials to set up a meeting in response to communications that we have had, particularly from Strathclyde Police and ACPOS. We seek to engage ...
The Convener:
Lab
Are any meetings happening at this time?
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I am not aware that they have started—my officials may have other information—but I am aware that the meetings are being set up, although that may come throu...
The Convener:
Lab
Can the officials give us an update? I am pressing you on this because the police were unable to come to the meeting and we have not had any evidence from CO...
Philip Lamont (Scottish Government Criminal Justice Directorate):
Strathclyde Police wrote to the cabinet secretary a few weeks ago raising the issue. A meeting is due to be set up and will take place, I hope, before the en...
Alasdair Allan (Western Isles) (SNP):
SNP
An issue that has been raised by people who largely support the bill's aims is the definition of "out of control". Does the Government have a view on that is...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
We agree with the bill's definition. Section 1(3) has a two-part test for whether a dog is deemed to be out of control. It states:"a dog is out of control if...
Alasdair Allan:
SNP
The Government's reading is that the test has two parts, which must both be met.
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
It is a two-part test both parts of which must be met.
Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab):
Lab
Good morning, cabinet secretary. Do you have concerns or views about how dog control notices will be enforced?
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
The cost implications will depend largely on the use that local authorities choose to make of the system. The financial memorandum acknowledges a margin of u...
Mary Mulligan:
Lab
We will pursue the costs issue, but my question was more about the practical measures that are being requested. I understand that only one person will be nee...
Philip Lamont:
I agree with the witnesses last week who said that notices will be an effective tool in their overall armoury to deal with dogs. We hope that even just the p...
Mary Mulligan:
Lab
I agree with the hope that the power will act as a deterrent and that, if a DCN needs to be issued, it will provide a direction of travel for how to behave i...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
The bill will not establish, and we would not support, an appeal or court mechanism. We will give powers to local authorities, which will have to consider th...
Mary Mulligan:
Lab
Do you accept that certainty about the process is needed? As the ultimate sanction is destroying the dog, the measures before that point is reached must be s...
Philip Lamont:
Section 5 sets out the formal breach procedure. We hope that the bill will act as a good deterrent and that the procedures in it will not have to be used. Th...
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD):
LD
The bill would require authorities to appoint authorised officers. The committee heard in evidence last week that some local authorities in Scotland do not h...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I understand that the committee has heard from local authorities. We will listen with interest to what authorities say about how they would pursue the issue....
Jim Tolson:
LD
I appreciate that you might have to enter into negotiations with local authorities. Do you accept that it is clear that, if additional resources are required...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
That is clearly the case. I know from experience in my constituency that the antisocial behaviour unit in the east Edinburgh area office has to deal with dog...
Jim Tolson:
LD
The bill provides for the creation of a national database of dog control notices, which would also have financial implications. I understand that although th...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
We do not see the need for a national database, which would have a cost. Local authorities will be required to keep records, and the benefits of a national d...
Jim Tolson:
LD
There are many instances in which bodies such as local authorities and health boards collect information on the Scottish Government's behalf. My concern is t...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
To some extent, it does not matter what information is collected because there is only so much information that we can collect regarding a dangerous dog. I a...
Jim Tolson:
LD
At this stage of discussions, we are here to question the points in the bill and put them to the cabinet secretary, regardless of our politics. I appreciate ...
The Convener:
Lab
There has been some discussion about the benefits of a database of people who are not suitable to have dogs or who use them almost as offensive weapons. It w...