Committee
Justice Committee, 12 Jan 2010
12 Jan 2010 · S3 · Justice Committee
Item of business
Legal Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Arithmetically, the argument is correct, because 600 divided by 10,000 is 6 per cent—I am no mathematician, but I think that that is correct. I said earlier that about one third of the profession is engaged in small to medium-sized firms so, if that is the correct proportion, it would be fairer to say that 600 of the perhaps 3,000 solicitors who provide legal services in small and medium-sized firms—around 20 per cent—provide legal aid. However, the point is well made that that is not a majority of firms and, although a fairly substantial number of firms provide legal aid, I do not discount the concerns that have been expressed.I accept the general point that more people might present with debt problems, for example, during times of recession. We know that to be the case. However, I do not accept the premise that the bill will lead to a sort of predation of that number. If it is the case, as the member argues, that in the recession, solicitors are now doing legal aid work in order to maintain their income, they will carry on doing that work in order to continue deriving income from it. Although modest, that income is not unreasonable and should allow a reasonable living to be had if one is operating a legal aid practice efficiently with a busy court schedule and client list. In my view, the bill is not likely to exacerbate the problem. On the contrary, it is likely to lead to improved possibilities.Many witnesses, including those from the consumer lobby, but also those from the Law Society of Scotland, have argued that to cater for those who need access to justice and who have difficult family law, debt law, labour law or employment law problems, the bill might open up the possibility of new opportunities, whether through private concerns, citizens advice bureaux, law centres or legal aid solicitors. The restrictions that the bill is removing will allow those opportunities to be explored.A point was made by Citizens Advice Scotland that the provision that the services have to be provided for a "fee, gain or reward" might cause restrictions and limitations. Without giving any undertaking today, I can say that we will look at that. Having seen that evidence, we have decided to go away and consider whether we need to amend that provision.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Con
Item 2 also relates to the Legal Services (Scotland) Bill and is the main item of business this morning. I welcome Fergus Ewing, the Minister for Community S...
The Minister for Community Safety (Fergus Ewing):
SNP
Good morning, convener and committee members. I begin by declaring that I am a Scottish solicitor, but I am not in practice.At the heart of the bill is the r...
The Convener:
Con
Thank you for your useful introduction. I certainly do not think that we want to do anything about rights of audience until the Thomson report, which follows...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Several factors have driven the case for reform. The committee is aware of the history, which is fully canvassed in the policy memorandum to the bill. In Eng...
The Convener:
Con
Given that the Westminster Government introduced the financial services act south of the border some years ago, what would be the impact of our not passing a...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I presume that you are referring to the Legal Services Act 2007, not the financial services act.
The Convener:
Con
Sorry—yes.
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
One facet that has emerged from almost all the evidence is that not passing the bill presents some very real risks for the Scottish legal profession. If we d...
The Convener:
Con
You may think that it is strange that I am raising this issue at this stage in the proceedings, bearing it in mind that the bill has been certified by both t...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I am pleased that you have raised that issue with me. The answer is that I am satisfied. A number of issues have been raised relating to possible problems wi...
The Convener:
Con
It would be useful if you could give us a written representation on that heading.
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Thank you.
The Convener:
Con
We now turn to questions surrounding access to justice, which will be led by Stewart Maxwell.
Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Good morning, minister. You said in your opening remarks that a number of witnesses have submitted evidence to the committee in which they express concern ab...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
My response is on a number of levels. First, to ensure that access is available to those who are perhaps most vulnerable and those whose problems may involve...
The Convener:
Con
You will have that opportunity shortly.
Stewart Maxwell:
SNP
We will come on to the issue of regulation in more detail shortly.The minister mentioned that the amount of legal aid work has increased. It has been express...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Arithmetically, the argument is correct, because 600 divided by 10,000 is 6 per cent—I am no mathematician, but I think that that is correct. I said earlier ...
Stewart Maxwell:
SNP
I hear what the minister is saying, but I have a final question. Although the legal services market is not directly comparable to many other areas of life in...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I do not think so. I really do not think that the areas of law that we are talking about are likely to be of great interest to supermarkets. As the member en...
Colin McKay (Scottish Government Constitution, Courts and Law Directorate):
I was not sure whether the 600 to which Mr Maxwell referred were 600 individuals or 600 firms.
Stewart Maxwell:
SNP
I think that the minister used the figure 619.
Colin McKay:
If it was 600 firms, that would not be comparable with 10,000 individual solicitors, because firms would have more than one—
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I was quoting Tom Murray, who referred to 619 registered civil firms.
Colin McKay:
So it is not quite such a fragile—
The Convener:
Con
It could be much higher.
Colin McKay:
Absolutely.More generally, a lot of access to justice issues were looked at in a fairly major review that was undertaken a few years ago. One of the review's...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
I am intrigued by the suggestion that the bill will have advantages in social welfare law. To be frank, it seems to me that if, for example, one were to cons...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
The bill's primary purpose is not to tackle that problem, as I have already said. I hope that members agree that the provisions in the bill that directly app...
Robert Brown:
LD
I would like to avoid doubt about the motivation for the bill and its general purpose and direction. You have given a clear view of the position that would a...