Committee
Justice 2 Committee, 09 Sep 2004
09 Sep 2004 · S2 · Justice 2 Committee
Item of business
Fire (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Robert Marshall (Scottish Executive Legal and Parliamentary Services):
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It might be helpful to set out how the current administration schemes work. The terminology of the 1947 act is not helpful as it was replaced by section 147 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973. Therefore, the current schemes date from local government reorganisation in 1975.Although the current legislation provides for voluntary schemes, such schemes were required to be approved—previously by the Secretary of State for Scotland and now by Scottish ministers. Such schemes may have been voluntary in the sense that the authorities that wished to combine could make a proposal to do so, but any such scheme could not have gone further without ministerial approval.The bill achieves the same policy in a slightly different way. It would not prevent fire and rescue authorities from presenting proposals to Scottish ministers on how they might do business in a more efficient way, and ministers would then have to decide yea or nay. The way in which the matter is addressed in the bill does not represent a difference in how the policy would be achieved.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Con
Item 3 is our opportunity to take evidence on the Fire (Scotland) Bill from the bill team, and it is my pleasant duty to welcome to the meeting: Ian Snedden,...
Ian Snedden (Scottish Executive Justice Department):
Yes please. I thought that it might be helpful if I set out for the committee how we reached the position of drafting our new fire service legislation. I int...
The Convener:
Con
Thank you, Mr Snedden. Those remarks are helpful and they may have thrown some light on areas that we had questions about.Let me start with a broad inquiry. ...
Ian Snedden:
Yes. Technically, the bill's provisions would allow amalgamation orders to provide for a smaller number of larger joint boards. However, in essence, that par...
The Convener:
Con
Are those provisions in the bill an identical replication of the existing provisions?
Ian Snedden:
They are not quite identical. The current legislation also provides that fire authorities themselves can make proposals for amalgamation schemes. We have not...
The Convener:
Con
In referring to the existing legislation, were you referring to the voluntary combination provisions?
Ian Snedden:
Yes.
The Convener:
Con
Will those be abolished by the bill?
Ian Snedden:
The combination of boards will not be abolished, but in removing those provisions, we are identifying the fact that fire authority proposals for such structu...
The Convener:
Con
However, the voluntary element that was previously enshrined in statute will disappear under the bill.
Ian Snedden:
The advice that we received was that those provisions were technically unnecessary as they did not do anything. Perhaps Mr Marshall can explain.
Robert Marshall (Scottish Executive Legal and Parliamentary Services):
It might be helpful to set out how the current administration schemes work. The terminology of the 1947 act is not helpful as it was replaced by section 147 ...
The Convener:
Con
Just to deal with the specific aspect, where does section 5 of the 1947 act relate to all of this? I understand that that was the genesis of a voluntary comb...
Robert Marshall:
I hesitate to correct you, but section 5 does not apply to Scotland.
The Convener:
Con
Right. It is helpful to know that.
Robert Marshall:
The issue is complicated. Section 36 of the 1947 act is where one reads what happens in Scotland. However, it, in turn, has been amended heavily and so it is...
The Convener:
Con
Thank you for that helpful clarification.I return to the broad thrust of where the balance of power lies and what the respective emphases are. I referred to ...
Ian Snedden:
Section 35 is about what we call reinforcement schemes. It is about the arrangements under which fire authorities come together, as they do at present, to pu...
The Convener:
Con
That suggests that the provisions of section 35 are a little gentler than I had thought. The way in which I read the section, it seemed to suggest that power...
Ian Snedden:
The only situation in which ministers could exercise those powers is if they were invited to do so by one of the authorities.
The Convener:
Con
So that is the Executive's intention.
Ian Snedden:
Yes.
The Convener:
Con
Ministers would not make a spontaneous intervention.
Ian Snedden:
The party to such an agreement would bring forward the provision on his own initiative. Ministers would agree with the provision only for the purposes of sec...
The Convener:
Con
Thank you for that.I know that my colleagues are anxious to get in. My final question concerns the charging order provisions that are to be found in section ...
Ian Snedden:
Under current legislation, provisions apply for charging and, in essence, those provisions will not be changed. A public consultation will be held on the cha...
The Convener:
Con
Is it the Executive's intention to be more specific in the bill? From what you have said, the old lady whose cat has gone up a tree is not in an exempt categ...
Ian Snedden:
The bill includes provisions that allow fire authorities to carry out specific functions that they believe to be appropriate. Rescuing a cat up a tree is tra...
The Convener:
Con
If an organisation was indifferent to equipment or facilities and was rendering false alarm calls on a regular basis, I presume that the fire service would c...