Committee
Justice 2 Committee, 27 Nov 2002
27 Nov 2002 · S1 · Justice 2 Committee
Item of business
Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I, too, support the minister and welcome his response to the committee's report. He took on board the concerns and addressed them. I respect where Scott Barrie is coming from. He consistently argued his viewpoint in the committee from day one, but accepted the majority view when the committee report was published. However, amendment 121 goes too far and so I cannot support it. As the minister made clear, section 43 puts the issues raised in the case of A v UK into Scots law. As we heard in evidence, currently there can be no certainty that cognisance is always taken of A v UK in court decisions. By inserting section 43 into the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill, there can be no room for doubt. It is important to support that view, which the committee reached in its conclusions. With section 43, which will outlaw blows to the head, shaking and the use of implements, we take the protection of children a stage further. The committee fully supports going that step further. We heard evidence to support the proposition that we should outlaw the use of implements. I do not think that anyone could defend blows to the head or the use of implements as a way of chastising a child and I believe that it is right to make those actions illegal. Of course, the committee parted company with the Executive on making it illegal to lay a hand on, or lightly chastise, a child under three. My experience as a parent of three children has shown me how difficult it would be to enforce such a law. Moreover, it is likely that parents would see that law as the state meddling in their right to discipline their children properly.I supported the view that the committee could not go that far, but I have every confidence in the Executive's amendments and section 43. Therefore, I cannot support amendment 45, in the name of Bill Aitken, which proposes to remove section 43. There is a genuine argument that the law needs to be clarified and taken further, so that means of punishment such as a blow to the head and the use of an implement are outlawed. I support the Executive's amendments.
In the same item of business
Section 43—Physical punishment of children
The Convener:
Lab
I welcome Jim Wallace and the Executive officials.Amendment 121 is grouped with amendments 8, 9, 10, 122 and 45. If amendment 121 is agreed to, I cannot call...
Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab):
Lab
Amendments 121 and 122 seek to remove the defence of "reasonable parental chastisement" that is set out in section 10 of the Children and Young Persons (Scot...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
I welcome the opportunity to come before the committee to discuss this topic, which I seem to have discussed with it on a number of occasions. Fate has some ...
The Convener:
Lab
We were saying the same thing only this morning.
Mr Wallace:
It is important that I set out the policy objectives of section 43 at the beginning, because there has been much discussion on the issue. Some people support...
Bill Aitken:
Con
We are going over old ground to some extent, as the committee has debated this matter at considerable length and in great depth. Scott Barrie has been entire...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
I commend Scott Barrie for lodging amendment 121. I have not the slightest difficulty in supporting his objectives. In previous discussions, committee member...
Mr Morrison:
Lab
I support the position that has been outlined by the Minister for Justice. I cannot support the amendments that have been lodged by my colleague Scott Barrie...
The Convener:
Lab
Are you sure?
Mr Morrison:
Lab
The Child Support Agency has not contacted me. One of my children is three years of age, which is what I intended to say, and the other is 18 months. I see t...
George Lyon:
LD
I, too, support the minister and welcome his response to the committee's report. He took on board the concerns and addressed them. I respect where Scott Barr...
Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
I would love to be a fly on the wall when Alasdair Morrison gets home. Most of the arguments have been rehearsed. I cannot support Scott Barrie's amendments ...
The Convener:
Lab
The minister is not bound to answer that question.
Mr Wallace:
Thank you. I will respond to one or two of the points that have been made. We have had a good debate on what we all recognise is a difficult subject. We have...
The Convener:
Lab
Thank you, minister. I am glad that you acknowledged that some thought had gone into the committee's stage 1 report. We spent a considerable amount of time c...
Scott Barrie:
Lab
I echo the first point that the convener made. I do not think that members of the committee are 100 miles apart on the issue, which the popular press has som...
The Convener:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 121 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener:
Lab
There will be a division.
ForBarrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)AgainstAitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (...
The Convener:
Lab
Now Scott Barrie knows how Bill Aitken usually feels. The result of the division is: For 1, Against 5, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 121 disagreed to.
Amendments 8 to 10 moved—Mr Jim Wallace—and agreed to.
Amendment 122 not moved.
Amendment 45 moved—Bill Aitken.
The Convener:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 45 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener:
Lab
There will be a division.
ForAitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)AgainstBarrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (...