Committee
Justice 2 Committee, 14 Nov 2001
14 Nov 2001 · S1 · Justice 2 Committee
Item of business
Subordinate Legislation
Draft Small Claims (Scotland) Amendment Order 2001<br />Draft Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act 1971 (Privative Jurisdiction and Summary Cause) Order 2001
Our first agenda item deals with two draft orders. I refer members to the note by the clerk, J2/01/31/2, which sets out the background and procedure. I advise members that there is a small typing error in the first line of paragraph 3. The note reads "1998", but it should read "1988". Members should also note petition PE416, from the GMB union, which relates to the orders that we are considering. They will also note that additional papers and correspondence about the orders have been circulated. In addition, some late e-mails have arrived this morning. I also draw members' attention to parliamentary questions about the orders lodged by Brian Fitzpatrick, copies of which have also been circulated. I am not required to declare an interest, but I shall do so. I declare, for the record, that I am a member of the GMB union.The debate can last up to 90 minutes, although I do not think that that is likely. I shall call members to speak after the Deputy Minister for Justice has spoken. The committee will then decide whether it wants to recommend the orders, whether it wants further information or whether it does not want to recommend the orders.I welcome the Deputy Minister for Justice, Iain Gray. Please speak to and move motions S1M-2424 and S1M-2425.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
Our first agenda item deals with two draft orders. I refer members to the note by the clerk, J2/01/31/2, which sets out the background and procedure. I advis...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Iain Gray):
Lab
I will speak about the two orders together, as they are very much a package. The purpose of the orders is to increase the different financial limits, known a...
That the Justice 2 Committee recommends that the draft Small Claims (Scotland) Amendment Order 2001 be approved.
That the Justice 2 Committee recommends that the draft Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act 1971 (Privative Jurisdiction and Summary Cause) Order 2001 be approved.
The Convener:
Lab
Before we begin, members should bear in mind that we are involved in a debate and not in an evidence-taking session. The background note that members have on...
Iain Gray:
Lab
Is the convener looking for a response? I am not sure whether I can respond to your question now, or whether you want me to sum up at the end of the debate. ...
The Convener:
Lab
If you could.
Iain Gray:
Lab
The key concerns that came into play at the time that the orders were previously laid before the Justice and Home Affairs Committee were concerns about the s...
Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP):
SNP
I realise that this is supposed to be a debate, but in some ways we are asking questions of the minister. I was interested in the issue that he raised about ...
Iain Gray:
Lab
On the last point, I am not aware of that sum of money having been earmarked for personal injury claims and handed back. I think the point made in the petiti...
Mrs Ewing:
SNP
What are the implications for the legal aid budget?
Iain Gray:
Lab
We have considered that and it seems to us that the impact on the legal aid budget will not be so great that it cannot be dealt with within the current budge...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
Personal injury claims are the nub of the matter. The minister has alleviated some of the concerns. I would be interested if the minister, at some juncture, ...
Iain Gray:
Lab
I will start with the final point and go backwards. No principle is being diluted, because what we are discussing is a change to the jurisdiction limits, whi...
The Convener:
Lab
I am sorry to interrupt you, but I want to stop you on that point and ask a question about the numbers that you have given us. That information is useful, bu...
Iain Gray:
Lab
There are two different points. I was responding to Mr Aitken's point about the role of the Court of Session in developing the law of Scotland by taking its ...
Bill Aitken:
Con
I want to return to the issue of personal injury claims so that I can be satisfied that the measure will not in any way be prejudicial to those. A claim for ...
Iain Gray:
Lab
Yes.
Bill Aitken:
Con
Legal aid would be available to cover the legal expenses that were claimable. What are you attempting to do here? Are you attempting to set up a situation si...
Iain Gray:
Lab
Bill Aitken is correct to say that legal aid would be available. The scale of expenses that would apply would be the summary cause scale. As I said, the lett...
Bill Aitken:
Con
But, in England and Wales, personal injury claims have been removed from the equation, in a simplified procedure.
Iain Gray:
Lab
Yes, in England and Wales, personal injury claims have been removed from the small claims procedure and we propose to do the same. That will allow people to ...
Bill Aitken:
Con
Thank you—that is very helpful.
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
It is probably worth while my saying at this stage that I am minded to oppose these orders, although I am prepared to be persuaded by the debate and the mini...
Iain Gray:
Lab
I, too, find the comments in the GMB petition on the lack of consultation rather puzzling. As the convener made clear, the consultation process took place so...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
In the light of the difficulty that appears to have arisen on consultation, is the minister prepared to undertake on his part or that of his Executive collea...
Iain Gray:
Lab
I am happy to take that point. We are always prepared to consider the effectiveness of our consultation. I repeat that the delay that was caused by the passi...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
I accept the minister's point too.
Mrs Ewing:
SNP
I will move on from consultation. Minister, you said en passant to Bill Aitken that if the orders were passed, they would be monitored over, say, the next 12...
Iain Gray:
Lab
If the changes are made, we will need to monitor their effect on the distribution of civil business in the sheriff court and between the sheriff court and th...