Committee
Justice 1 Committee, 02 Nov 2005
02 Nov 2005 · S2 · Justice 1 Committee
Item of business
Family Law (Scotland) Bill: <br />Stage 2
These are highly sensitive matters, and I am sure that we all respect the opinions of those with whom we may not necessarily agree. I am inclined to support Margaret Mitchell's amendment. I do so as one who was engaged from 1979 for two decades in family law, although I make no claim to be a specialist. The Divorce (Scotland) Act 1976 contains a duty on lawyers who are acting in consistorial matters to encourage reconciliation. Therefore, the law recognises that lawyers can play a part in discussing with the party in the privacy of an office the possibilities of reconciliation. A lawyer may then recommend mediation or other services. That is a duty that I always sought to fulfil where appropriate.Mary Mulligan made a reasonable point, but Margaret Mitchell's amendment does not seek to force anything; it seeks to encourage. Since the law already contains a similar provision for lawyers, there is no reason why it should not do so for a sheriff.Evidence from the House of Commons in 1996 shows that 50 per cent of men and 28 per cent of women regret having gone through a divorce. Indeed, many couples consider reconciling after divorce. If that is the case, surely it would be sensible for the sheriff at least to be able to look at that possibility at the time of divorce.It may be wrong to generalise, but in my 20 years' experience I found that people seeking advice on divorce are often agitated, confused, angry and uncertain. If children are involved there are almost always mixed feelings about whether it is prudent to proceed. I understand that figures for 1989-93 from "Civil Judicial Statistics Scotland", which are the most recently available, show that of the divorce actions brought in that period, no less than 16 per cent were dropped. That is an indication that many people decide not to proceed with divorce, even though they might have embarked on an action.I say that knowing that raising an action of divorce is a momentous step that sets off a chain reaction of emotions and consequences. However, there are no statistics on how many people have visited lawyers with the intention of instigating a divorce action since the duty contained in the 1976 act was introduced, and have decided to stay together as result, or partly as a result, of the advice received from the lawyer or as a result of the counselling or mediation that they received.Because what happens between solicitor and client is completely confidential, it may be impossible to discern statistics. However, I suspect that a huge number of couples have decided not to proceed with divorce because one of them benefited from advice that they should stay together; perhaps, in most cases, for the good of the children. Stewart Stevenson made the very apposite and telling point that proposed new section 2(1)(a) of the 1976 act would need to be amended, because it may not always be suitable for a meeting to be required. The proposed new section does not stipulate that there must be a meeting. Nevertheless, perhaps proposed new section 2(1)(b) should be amended so that the sheriff could have regard to the points that Stewart Stevenson made about whether it would be reasonable for such a meeting to take place. If there has been violence, a meeting would obviously not be reasonable. No sheriff would require a wife who has been the victim of matrimonial violence to meet her violent husband. That could be dealt with at stage 3, perhaps by a modest amendment to amendment 14. I would be interested to hear whether Margaret Mitchell agrees in her closing remarks. I hope that the committee will give sympathetic consideration to amendment 14.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
Item 2 is the Family Law (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I welcome once again Hugh Henry, the Deputy Minister for Justice, and his legal team: Carol Duncan, Anne...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):
Lab
I am entirely in your hands, convener. I am content to listen to what other members have to say.
The Convener:
Lab
Okay. I will take two or three comments, and then allow you the final say.
Mr Bruce McFee (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
As members know, I spoke on the matter at length previously. It is regrettable that the advice was the way it was; we do not want to hammer home the point an...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
I did not participate in the first stage 2 meeting, but I remain concerned about cases in which, through inadvertence, it transpires that a marriage that too...
Mr Wallace:
LD
It is regrettable that we are in this position. However, I note that section 28 relates to the validity of marriages contracted abroad. Given that the number...
The Convener:
Lab
I would support that approach. In fact, I was going to conclude my remarks by saying that I think that the Executive ought to remain open to that possibility...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I regret that I inadvertently misled the committee about the impact of the abolition of marriage by cohabitation with habit and repute on couples who marry a...
The Convener:
Lab
I am aware that you described the Executive's position at the previous meeting. We do not seek to argue against the Executive—well, perhaps some of us do—but...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
If we decide that it would not be appropriate to lodge an amendment and another member wishes to do so, we would support the right of that member to have the...
The Convener:
Lab
Before we begin consideration of stage 2 of the Family Law (Scotland) Bill, I welcome to the committee several visiting members: Ken Macintosh, Brian Adam an...
Before section 10
The Convener:
Lab
Amendment 14, in the name of Margaret Mitchell, is in a group on its own.
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
Good morning, minister. The purpose of amendment 14 is to make explicit the possibility and encouragement of reconciliation in the proposals that are contain...
Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab):
Lab
Good morning, minister. I fully accept the intention behind Margaret Mitchell's amendment 14. We all want to support marriage; we want, in particular, to sup...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
I, too, have sympathy for what Margaret Mitchell seeks to achieve through amendment 14, but I also have difficulty with the means by which she has expressed ...
Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):
SNP
These are highly sensitive matters, and I am sure that we all respect the opinions of those with whom we may not necessarily agree. I am inclined to support ...
Mr McFee:
SNP
I have a great deal of sympathy with Margaret Mitchell's attempt to introduce some sanity into a process that sometimes loses its footing. I have swithered o...
Marlyn Glen (North East Scotland) (Lab):
Lab
I start by reminding the committee of the lengths to which we have gone to take formal and informal evidence, from many organisations and at many levels, on ...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I fully understand and have some sympathy with the reasoning that underlies amendment 14. However, Bruce McFee put his finger on it when he said there is a d...
The Convener:
Lab
I am grateful to Margaret Mitchell for lodging amendment 14, because we should debate the matter. I know that such a system was tried in England and Wales. M...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I support many of the comments that have been made and the legitimate aspiration of trying to get people to make a marriage work. A marriage is a serious und...
Margaret Mitchell:
Con
This has been an excellent debate. Amendment 14 has been thoroughly discussed and some good points have been raised. Jim Wallace's point was that if a couple...
The Convener:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 14 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener:
Lab
There will be a division.
ForMcFee, Mr Bruce (West of Scotland) (SNP)Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)AgainstGlen, Marlyn (North East Scotland) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgo...
The Convener:
Lab
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 4, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 14 disagreed to.
Section 10—Divorce: reduction in separation periods