Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 11 June 2026 [Last updated 19:16]
11 Jun 2026 · S7 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I have been through this a number of times with Mr Fraser, but we will go back through it again for his benefit.
First, what he calls the black hole is a projected gap that is based on projecting past spending patterns into the future. As Mr Fraser well knows, the Scottish spending review that was published last year identified, over a five-year period, how the Scottish Government would close that gap, as it is called, to ensure that income balances expenditure. That has already been laid out.
In relation to public service reform, Mr Fraser needs to understand the difference between cuts to services—that is, delivering reduced or fewer services—and being more efficient while delivering the same or better services. That is about taking waste out of the system, which I am sure that he will agree exists, in order to make those services more efficient.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Katy Clark)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform: empowering staff, service users and local com...
The Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform (Ivan McKee)
SNP
I am delighted to open this afternoon’s debate on public service reform, which I believe will be the defining task of this session of Parliament.Public servi...
Andrew Baxter (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD)
LD
I am glad that the cabinet secretary has got on to talking about prevention, which was a central tenet of the Christie commission report. I listened to the c...
Ivan McKee
SNP
I will talk more about that in the course of my remarks, but, briefly, prevention is one of the four core principles of the Christie commission. When we publ...
Meghan Gallacher (Central Scotland and Lothians West) (Con)
Con
The Christie commission was established in 2011. We are talking about prevention, which was mentioned then, and about joined-up working, which was also menti...
Ivan McKee
SNP
I do not know whether the member came into the debate late, but she should have heard the first part of my speech in which I listed a whole page of things th...
Willie Rennie (Fife North East) (LD)
LD
I agree with all of that, but it sounds as if the cabinet secretary is trying to run the whole of Government by himself. Can he give us an idea of how he is ...
Ivan McKee
SNP
I thank the member for his comments. He can rest assured that all my Cabinet colleagues are 100 per cent on board with this important agenda and the First Mi...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I am pleased to speak to the amendment in my name, in which we set out very clearly, as we did in the election campaign just a few short weeks ago, that Labo...
Michael Marra
Lab
If the cabinet secretary wants to tell me that vision, I will gladly hear it right now.
Ivan McKee
SNP
Michael Marra talks about fiscal sustainability being the driver. That is one aspect, of course; however, as I articulated in my opening remarks, the driver ...
Michael Marra
Lab
I will say two things in response to that. First, I am sure that the cabinet secretary is a keen advocate for that, but I would believe him a bit more if we ...
Malcolm Offord (West Scotland) (Reform)
Reform
I congratulate Ivan McKee on his appointment. His role could be the most interesting in the Parliament in the next five years; if he delivers on the targets ...
Willie Rennie
LD
What Malcom Offord says is interesting. From his extensive experience as a Conservative minister in the UK Government, what can he teach members about reform...
Malcolm Offord
Reform
I will be delighted to cover that, because there are some insights that I was able to glean when I was a minister in the UK Government. Those are part of the...
Ivan McKee
SNP
The New Zealand example is instructive. The big difference is that, as a country of 5 million people, New Zealand is a normal independent country. It does no...
Malcolm Offord
Reform
Of course, the response to that is that Scotland spends £117 billion but raises £87 billion in taxes, so there is a £30 billion structural deficit that is pa...
Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green)
Green
Reforming our public services means making sure that they are sustainable for the long term. It also means ensuring that they are delivering what we need the...
Michael Marra
Lab
It strikes me that that is precisely what Scottish Labour’s amendment describes. We must understand the shape of those public bodies, decide where there is d...
Lorna Slater
Green
The Labour amendment specifically talks about cutting public bodies, but not about making sure that their remits do not overlap, which would involve changing...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson)
SNP
I call Murdo Fraser, who joins us online.15:47
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I should explain that I am having to contribute remotely today due to a family issue; otherwise, I would be in the chamber.I welcome Ivan McKee to his new ro...
Ivan McKee
SNP
I have been through this a number of times with Mr Fraser, but we will go back through it again for his benefit.First, what he calls the black hole is a proj...
Murdo Fraser
Con
We will come on to waste in a moment—I have some suggestions to make in that regard—but I refer Mr McKee to today’s Accounts Commission report on local gover...
Ivan McKee
SNP
Made a request to intervene.
Murdo Fraser
Con
I will happily give way again if I get the time back.
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson)
SNP
Cabinet secretary, I am afraid that Mr Fraser is in his last minute or so.
Murdo Fraser
Con
Perhaps the cabinet secretary could respond to that point in his winding-up speech. I will cover a couple of other points quickly.Fourthly, we need to focus ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson)
SNP
You must wind up, Mr Fraser.
Murdo Fraser
Con
We want to see that black hole in the public finances closed. It needs to close. We need to hear the meat of the Government’s argument on what public service...