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Showing 60 of 2,096,445 contributions. Latest 30 days: 3,975. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 11 Jun 2026.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
17:18
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
That concludes decision time.17:31The rest of this Official Report will be published progressively as soon as the text is available.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The final question is, that motion S7M-00346, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on committee membership, be agreed to.Motion agreed to,That the Parliament agrees the membership of committees of the Parliament as follows—Climate Action Committ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, is: For 67, Against 25, Abstentions 26.Motion, as amended, agreed to,That the Parliament welcomes that the...
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote has been recorded.
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am sorry—I could not connect to the voting app. I would have abstained.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The sixth question is, that motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, is: For 36, Against 67, Abstentions 16.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Baxter, Andrew (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and Wes...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote will be recorded.
Duncan Dunlop (South Scotland) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I apologise—my vote was not recorded. I would have voted yes.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The fifth question is, that amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, is: For 26, Against 91, Abstentions 0.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Is...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, is: For 66, Against 27, Abstentions 26.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Barratt, David (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)Beattie, Colin (Midlothi...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, is: For 17, Against 92, Abstentions 9.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Kerr, Thomas (Glasgow) (Reform)Kirkwood, David (South Scotland) (Reform)Langan, Jam...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Malcolm Offord is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Murdo Fraser will fall.The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan M...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, is: For 94, Against 15, Abstentions 9.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Okay, thank you.
Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green) Green Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
My apologies, Presiding Officer. That was left over from when the app was not working.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
We come to the vote on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee. Members should cast their vote now.The vote is closed.We have a point of order from Lorna Slater.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.17:18Meeting suspended.17:21On resuming—
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There are seven questions to be put as a result of today’s business. The first question is, that amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The question on the motion will be put at decision time.
Jamie Hepburn SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I hate to disappoint Ivan McKee, but his speech was not the last speech before the world cup. I will also undoubtedly disappoint other members given that we are looking to get out, but I will not take too long.Members will be aware that standing orders require the Parliamentar...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
Go on—why not?
The Minister for Parliamentary Business and Veterans (Jamie Hepburn) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I will move and speak to the motion, Presiding Officer.
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S7M-00346, on committee membership. I ask Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move the motion.17:16
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
That concludes the debate on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does Mr Kerr want to intervene? I will get the time back, so I am happy to take his point. No, he does not. Okay.We have already saved more than £50 million on estates. I thought that it was 12, but we have now, in fact, shut 13 Scottish Government buildings. Murdo Fraser has ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Mr Kerr, you know to try to intervene rather than to attack from a sedentary position.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I think that the confusion is more broad. The Reform manifesto talks about getting rid of all 130 public bodies—or “quangos”, as they call them. However, there is also a recognition from across the Reform benches that those public bodies—whether Police Scotland, the court syst...
Victor Currie (Highlands and Islands) (Reform) Reform Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does the cabinet secretary recall that Max Bannerman’s point on community wind farms was that they do not rely on subsidies? Therefore, it forms no contradiction in Reform policy on our opposition to net zero.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Yes. David Barratt also draws out the important point that the inconsistency in the Reform position is quite apparent. Reform members say in their amendment that we should not be talking about this stuff, and then they go on to talk about it from very different and contradicto...
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
—renewable energy schemes and for community-owned wind. Does the cabinet secretary agree that that is not the kind of reform that we need?
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Hello. It is not a speech within a speech. It is an intervention.
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In moving the Reform amendment, Malcolm Offord stated that the Scottish Government should have no remit on net zero and energy, and he suggested cutting public bodies that are responsible for related areas. In contrast, Max Bannerman noted the value of community wind power in ...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I will take David Barratt’s intervention, and then I will go on to talk about those other contributions.
David Barratt (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In principle, we need stability of funding and to recognise the great work that happens in community organisations, which I see every week in my constituency. That work is absolutely critical, because those organisations are, to a large extent, the front line, and their abilit...
Bob Doris SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I commend the comments on the third sector that we have heard in the chamber this afternoon. I draw the cabinet secretary’s attention to the Social Justice and Social Security Committee’s report on funding of the third and voluntary sectors, and I highlight the longer-term fun...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
On reflection, I am happy with the extent of the contributions that we have heard this afternoon. As I indicated at the outset, I was keen to hear from members, and that is what has happened for the most part. I will try to pick my way through the mind map that I have in front...
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Before I call the cabinet secretary, I say to members that, if they seek to make an intervention, they should remember to stand up and ask to make an intervention. I notice that buttons are pressed but, sometimes, the speakers do not see who is trying to intervene.17:05
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
We move to the open debate.15:58
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I congratulate Ivan McKee—I will call him super Ivan, given the scale of his task, based on his speech and the vision that he has set out today.From listening to colleagues from across the chamber, I am struck that there is a lot of common ground here, and I think that we need...
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I begin by welcoming the cabinet secretary to his new role and wishing him well. As we have already heard, Mr McKee has been handed what might become the defining task of this Government, which is tackling the £5 billion black hole in Scotland’s finances. As Murdo Fraser has j...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I call Murdo Fraser, who joins us online.15:47
Michael Marra Lab Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I point gently to the fact that Alyn Smith’s party had an outright majority in the Parliament for one of those parliamentary sessions, so not having had the numbers is not a foolproof excuse.Alyn Smith will find common ground across different areas. My note of caution to him w...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I should explain that I am having to contribute remotely today due to a family issue; otherwise, I would be in the chamber.I welcome Ivan McKee to his new role as Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform. I know that he is keen to dispel the notion that he is here as an axe...
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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 11 June 2026 [Last updated 19:16]

11 Jun 2026 · S7 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Of course, the response to that is that Scotland spends £117 billion but raises £87 billion in taxes, so there is a £30 billion structural deficit that is paid for by the UK Treasury. We can take that comparison either way.

I suggest to the cabinet secretary that what he has outlined on artificial intelligence, digital improvement and so on should be considered the ordinary course of business. That is how any department should be running; it should be running to maximise its efficiency on any budget. That should not be considered groundbreaking or revolutionary.

I encourage the cabinet secretary to start looking immediately at where we are wasting money, where there is duplication of money and where we are not getting value for money.

I will give three quick examples of that. As referred to by Michael Marra, we have the 132 quangos, which are spending £6 billion. We can talk about the money all day long, but what is interesting is the democratic deficit in how the country is run, with ministers not being able to control spending because it is at arm’s length. To come to Willie Rennie’s point, I saw that at first hand when I was a minister in the Department for Business and Trade and I was given the brief of trying to deal with the compensation for Post Office workers.

What I saw over the past 20 years, when I unravelled it, was a complete disconnect in the lines of authority between ministers and an arm’s-length body that behaved on its own account and did its own thing. The result was that the postmistresses and masters could not get accountability. There was no point in firing the minister, Ed Davey, because he was not in control of it in the first place. Quite apart from the money, can we please bring services back into our control under Ivan McKee, so that he can see the value for money, and so that when he pulls a lever, he can see where the money comes from?

Secondly, we know that energy is reserved to Westminster, so why does the Scottish Government spend £5 billion on net zero? Again, we cannot find that line. We cannot push a button in the public accounts of Scotland and get that number to spit out. We have to do a lot of work and go through many places, but we find that, in the current 2026-27 financial year, the Scottish budget commits more than £5 billion, which is described as record investment, to climate action and net zero measures. In the context of the £72 billion budget, that is approaching 8 per cent. I direct the cabinet secretary to that area as well.

The third area to which I would direct him is welfare. We all in the chamber believe in the welfare state to help people, as a safety net, as they move through life. In particular, we need to do a lot more to help people who have fallen out of the way of work to get back into work. I want to hear a lot more about the effort that we put into helping our colleagues and fellow citizens back into work.

The issue with welfare is that, over the past 10 years, the choices made by the SNP Government—particularly under Nicola Sturgeon, when she created a welfare economy—meant that 15 per cent, which was the biggest spend, was allocated to welfare, versus 3 per cent to education. The welfare budget is out of control. We are heading towards having a million Scots of working age who are not working, which is a national disaster for us all. That is the third area to which I would point Ivan McKee.

At the end of the day, the cabinet secretary has been in business, which is a good thing. We need more people in the chamber who have worked in business. He will know that any business can save 5 per cent of its costs without directly impacting its top line: 5 per cent of £72 billion is £3.5 billion. That would go a long way to fixing his budget, and he would be commended by the Scottish people for that.

I move amendment S7M-00309.4, to leave out from “welcomes” to end and insert:

“believes that public money is limited, whereas demand is infinite; further believes that meaningful reform starts in its chamber by using the time available to reach meaningful and defined decisions; believes that using parliamentary time to debate a motion that lacks any substantive action, and therefore leads to no definitive change, undermines the Parliament’s expressed desire for reform; recognises that emphasis on public service provision should be focused on outcomes and not inputs; believes that the recipients of public services are the most important people in this process and must be the focus of the Parliament’s attention; looks forward to co-operation with staff and legitimate representative groups to raise standards and improve provision, and calls on the Scottish Government to publish a programme of concrete action.”

15:40

References in this contribution

Motions, questions or amendments mentioned by their reference code.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Katy Clark) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform: empowering staff, service users and local com...
The Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform (Ivan McKee) SNP
I am delighted to open this afternoon’s debate on public service reform, which I believe will be the defining task of this session of Parliament.Public servi...
Andrew Baxter (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD) LD
I am glad that the cabinet secretary has got on to talking about prevention, which was a central tenet of the Christie commission report. I listened to the c...
Ivan McKee SNP
I will talk more about that in the course of my remarks, but, briefly, prevention is one of the four core principles of the Christie commission. When we publ...
Meghan Gallacher (Central Scotland and Lothians West) (Con) Con
The Christie commission was established in 2011. We are talking about prevention, which was mentioned then, and about joined-up working, which was also menti...
Ivan McKee SNP
I do not know whether the member came into the debate late, but she should have heard the first part of my speech in which I listed a whole page of things th...
Willie Rennie (Fife North East) (LD) LD
I agree with all of that, but it sounds as if the cabinet secretary is trying to run the whole of Government by himself. Can he give us an idea of how he is ...
Ivan McKee SNP
I thank the member for his comments. He can rest assured that all my Cabinet colleagues are 100 per cent on board with this important agenda and the First Mi...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to speak to the amendment in my name, in which we set out very clearly, as we did in the election campaign just a few short weeks ago, that Labo...
Michael Marra Lab
If the cabinet secretary wants to tell me that vision, I will gladly hear it right now.
Ivan McKee SNP
Michael Marra talks about fiscal sustainability being the driver. That is one aspect, of course; however, as I articulated in my opening remarks, the driver ...
Michael Marra Lab
I will say two things in response to that. First, I am sure that the cabinet secretary is a keen advocate for that, but I would believe him a bit more if we ...
Malcolm Offord (West Scotland) (Reform) Reform
I congratulate Ivan McKee on his appointment. His role could be the most interesting in the Parliament in the next five years; if he delivers on the targets ...
Willie Rennie LD
What Malcom Offord says is interesting. From his extensive experience as a Conservative minister in the UK Government, what can he teach members about reform...
Malcolm Offord Reform
I will be delighted to cover that, because there are some insights that I was able to glean when I was a minister in the UK Government. Those are part of the...
Ivan McKee SNP
The New Zealand example is instructive. The big difference is that, as a country of 5 million people, New Zealand is a normal independent country. It does no...
Malcolm Offord Reform
Of course, the response to that is that Scotland spends £117 billion but raises £87 billion in taxes, so there is a £30 billion structural deficit that is pa...
Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green) Green
Reforming our public services means making sure that they are sustainable for the long term. It also means ensuring that they are delivering what we need the...
Michael Marra Lab
It strikes me that that is precisely what Scottish Labour’s amendment describes. We must understand the shape of those public bodies, decide where there is d...
Lorna Slater Green
The Labour amendment specifically talks about cutting public bodies, but not about making sure that their remits do not overlap, which would involve changing...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP
I call Murdo Fraser, who joins us online.15:47
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I should explain that I am having to contribute remotely today due to a family issue; otherwise, I would be in the chamber.I welcome Ivan McKee to his new ro...
Ivan McKee SNP
I have been through this a number of times with Mr Fraser, but we will go back through it again for his benefit.First, what he calls the black hole is a proj...
Murdo Fraser Con
We will come on to waste in a moment—I have some suggestions to make in that regard—but I refer Mr McKee to today’s Accounts Commission report on local gover...
Ivan McKee SNP
Made a request to intervene.
Murdo Fraser Con
I will happily give way again if I get the time back.
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP
Cabinet secretary, I am afraid that Mr Fraser is in his last minute or so.
Murdo Fraser Con
Perhaps the cabinet secretary could respond to that point in his winding-up speech. I will cover a couple of other points quickly.Fourthly, we need to focus ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP
You must wind up, Mr Fraser.
Murdo Fraser Con
We want to see that black hole in the public finances closed. It needs to close. We need to hear the meat of the Government’s argument on what public service...